ultraclyde wrote:That's an interesting comment.. Most racing drivers are male. So if you are saying that women happen to be in the majority at various performance events that would be interesting.. I do know women at NASCAR events are surprisingly high percentage.mguar wrote:Dashpot wrote:I'm not sure about the exotics.. You'd be surprised at the numbers of Ferrari drivers who show up at a Ferrari track day event.. OK maybe they aren't pushing the car to the cars limits but you'd be surprised at how fast some are driven.. Those of us who show up with less than Ferrari's can often pass a lot of Ferrari'sultraclyde wrote:The MINI Cooper.....well, I don't really even need to address that, now do I?
Yes you do!
My take is most women buy them 'cause they're "cute" and most are regular Coopers. Guys buy them for the performance. My guess would be 80% female/20 male for Coopers & reverse that ratio for the S version.
Most any sporty street car is bought by "posers" simply because the proportion of drivers who compete is so miniscule. Even more miniscule for the exotics I bet.
I've never attended a PCA or BMW Track day event but I imagine the same thing exists.. By the way I suspect you're right about Mini Coopers.Okay, I will address it then! You are actually right AND wrong anout the Coopers. Most any given year (that I've seen figures for), 60% of all Coopers sold are the S variant, with some years being higher, which I found surprising. The Just-a-Coopers are actually more rare.
But you're wrong about the male-female ratio being different for the S model. It's 80% women too.
Strangely, in this area the same is anecdotally true for GT Mustangs as well. Just from my observation, if you see a late model V8 Mustang, it's about 2 to 1 that it's female driven. Percentage wise, you are more likely to see a guy driving a V6. Now, if you just take the modified cars - those whith obvious work done - they're more like 80% male driven. Again, just in my local observations of S197 and later cars.
Back to the MINI for a moment. With the track and performannce rep the S has, I was very surprised to find that the vast majority of the MINI community never wrenches on their own car. Even the guys with aftermarket pulleys, suspension, blah blah don't really know a wrench from a hole in the ground. I ran in to this time and time again while looking for hard core, DIY wrench info on a couple of the BIG MINI sites. Thousands and thousands of active members and not ONE how to or look-what-I-did on changing a clutch? Really? Lots of throwout bearing failures, sure, and lots of people paying the dealer to fix it. Kind of sad.
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Dec. 17, 2011 5:24 p.m. mguar New Reader
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Dec. 18, 2011 1:54 a.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
mguar wrote:
I race hoopties. My track cars have been, in order, a 1980 Corolla, a 1990 Talon AWD, a 1978 Celica and a 98 Daewoo.DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Well the question wasn't about how good a driver you are.. Rather if the car you drive tends to be owned by posers or playa's. With regard your comment about Ferrari drivers. Too bad.. There are some Ferrari drivers who are better drivers than I'll ever be.. What's more they are putting their multimillion dollar car on the track with me.. There are some mediocre ones to be sure, but I suppose as long as there is that huge divide between them and the rest of us. Some Ferrari's cost more to ensure for a month than I spent on the last new car I bought.. Maintenance on one is shocking.. $50,000 isn't that unusual a repair bill and $3000 oil changes are considered cheap..Ferraris are the worst, in my experience. Every single one I've been with on track was poorly driven by an idiot who wouldn't move over to let the Hondas pass.
Just a small example, when I was sixteen I beat a slick shod F40 at an autocross in my 200 dollar Corolla on snow tires, and he was nowhere near the worst Ferrari driver I've seen.
There are a bunch of reasons I don't like Ferraris, and the poser factor is a big part of it. I'm not saying they are all poorly driven, just the ones I've shared a track with. Talking with the guys who've held me up at track events or managed to finish dead last on PAX, the story usually goes something like this.
"I bought it because of mystique/looks/sound/snob appeal and then I watched a Formula One race. Ferrari makes F1 cars. F1 cars race on tracks. I will go to a track."
I'm sure this is different in the ranks of serious drivers, and if you're Nigel Mansel and have a trillionty dollars, I can totally understand buying a 599GTO. But at the local level, in my experience and my experience alone, the douche factor has just been astronomical.
As for them spending a lot of money on their cars, yah, I know. That's another reason I'll never buy a Ferrari regardless of how wealthy I become. I really don't like they way they are engineered.
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Dec. 18, 2011 6:56 a.m. tr8todd Reader
I own a TR8 and haven't met a TR8 owner poser yet. They all get driven hard. Impossible not to. The posing is left for the MGB/TR6 crowd.
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Dec. 18, 2011 7:03 a.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
It's hard to pose with a TR8.
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Dec. 18, 2011 9:50 a.m. mguar Reader
tr8todd wrote:
I own a TR8 and haven't met a TR8 owner poser yet. They all get driven hard. Impossible not to. The posing is left for the MGB/TR6 crowd.
That's exactly the sort of Information I was seeking.. not the I hate someone because,..... People buy cars for all sorts of reasons. It's not my judgement as to what's OK. I'd just like to know what sort of cars engender a desire to race..
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Dec. 18, 2011 10:01 a.m. rotard Reader
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
mguar wrote:
I race hoopties. My track cars have been, in order, a 1980 Corolla, a 1990 Talon AWD, a 1978 Celica and a 98 Daewoo.DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Well the question wasn't about how good a driver you are.. Rather if the car you drive tends to be owned by posers or playa's. With regard your comment about Ferrari drivers. Too bad.. There are some Ferrari drivers who are better drivers than I'll ever be.. What's more they are putting their multimillion dollar car on the track with me.. There are some mediocre ones to be sure, but I suppose as long as there is that huge divide between them and the rest of us. Some Ferrari's cost more to ensure for a month than I spent on the last new car I bought.. Maintenance on one is shocking.. $50,000 isn't that unusual a repair bill and $3000 oil changes are considered cheap..Ferraris are the worst, in my experience. Every single one I've been with on track was poorly driven by an idiot who wouldn't move over to let the Hondas pass.
Just a small example, when I was sixteen I beat a slick shod F40 at an autocross in my 200 dollar Corolla on snow tires, and he was nowhere near the worst Ferrari driver I've seen.
There are a bunch of reasons I don't like Ferraris, and the poser factor is a big part of it. I'm not saying they are all poorly driven, just the ones I've shared a track with. Talking with the guys who've held me up at track events or managed to finish dead last on PAX, the story usually goes something like this.
"I bought it because of mystique/looks/sound/snob appeal and then I watched a Formula One race. Ferrari makes F1 cars. F1 cars race on tracks. I will go to a track."
I'm sure this is different in the ranks of serious drivers, and if you're Nigel Mansel and have a trillionty dollars, I can totally understand buying a 599GTO. But at the local level, in my experience and my experience alone, the douche factor has just been astronomical.
As for them spending a lot of money on their cars, yah, I know. That's another reason I'll never buy a Ferrari regardless of how wealthy I become. I really don't like they way they are engineered.
You sound kind of bitter or something.
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Dec. 18, 2011 10:02 a.m. mguar Reader
DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Your statement about not liking the way Ferrari's are engineered intrigues me.. What do you find objectionable? While the idea of spending $3000 for an oil change offends my senses at my present income level, I can well imagine the circumstances whereby that would be trivial.. (It involves winning a really big lottery)mguar wrote:
I race hoopties. My track cars have been, in order, a 1980 Corolla, a 1990 Talon AWD, a 1978 Celica and a 98 Daewoo.DaewooOfDeath wrote:
Well the question wasn't about how good a driver you are.. Rather if the car you drive tends to be owned by posers or playa's. With regard your comment about Ferrari drivers. Too bad.. There are some Ferrari drivers who are better drivers than I'll ever be.. What's more they are putting their multimillion dollar car on the track with me.. There are some mediocre ones to be sure, but I suppose as long as there is that huge divide between them and the rest of us. Some Ferrari's cost more to ensure for a month than I spent on the last new car I bought.. Maintenance on one is shocking.. $50,000 isn't that unusual a repair bill and $3000 oil changes are considered cheap..Ferraris are the worst, in my experience. Every single one I've been with on track was poorly driven by an idiot who wouldn't move over to let the Hondas pass.
Just a small example, when I was sixteen I beat a slick shod F40 at an autocross in my 200 dollar Corolla on snow tires, and he was nowhere near the worst Ferrari driver I've seen.
There are a bunch of reasons I don't like Ferraris, and the poser factor is a big part of it. I'm not saying they are all poorly driven, just the ones I've shared a track with. Talking with the guys who've held me up at track events or managed to finish dead last on PAX, the story usually goes something like this.
"I bought it because of mystique/looks/sound/snob appeal and then I watched a Formula One race. Ferrari makes F1 cars. F1 cars race on tracks. I will go to a track."
I'm sure this is different in the ranks of serious drivers, and if you're Nigel Mansel and have a trillionty dollars, I can totally understand buying a 599GTO. But at the local level, in my experience and my experience alone, the douche factor has just been astronomical.
As for them spending a lot of money on their cars, yah, I know. That's another reason I'll never buy a Ferrari regardless of how wealthy I become. I really don't like they way they are engineered.
I do know Mercedes Benz drivers who spend as much and more. Also that's not unheard of with some BMW owners either..
Yes there is a lot of pleasure in beating a person who out spent you 20 or 200 to 1 on the race track.. However the fact that they are there no matter how cautious a driver they may be makes them not a poser (in my humble opinion)
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Dec. 18, 2011 5:55 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
rotard wrote: You sound kind of bitter or something.
No, just don't like the drivers I've met. -
Dec. 18, 2011 6:10 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
mguar wrote: Your statement about not liking the way Ferrari's are engineered intrigues me.. What do you find objectionable? While the idea of spending $3000 for an oil change offends my senses at my present income level, I can well imagine the circumstances whereby that would be trivial.. (It involves winning a really big lottery)
I do know Mercedes Benz drivers who spend as much and more. Also that's not unheard of with some BMW owners either..
Yes there is a lot of pleasure in beating a person who out spent you 20 or 200 to 1 on the race track.. However the fact that they are there no matter how cautious a driver they may be makes them not a poser (in my humble opinion)
Engineering, hmm. Let me explain this as a contrast between the 355 with the high end sports car I seriously lust after, the same generation 911 GT3.
The GT3 uses a compact, light weight engine with a very low center of gravity. It has a low cylinder count in order to improve efficiency (important in endurance racing), improve packaging and reliability. It uses a conventional manual box in order to maximize reliability and lower weight. It has a rear engine in order to maximize practicality in a sports car shape. It is one of the toughest, heartiest sports cars you can buy. People have raced dead stock ones at 24 hour enduros with no problems.
Porsche backs the car with all sorts of racing programs and, if you buy their kits, you can take a short cut to the pointy end of dozens of racing series.
The F355 uses an externally large, heavy engine with 40 valves in order to increase the number of valve seats you can pound into oblivion after 10k miles. It has too many cylinders for the displacement so that Ferrari could rev it higher (although the Porsche has the same redline), but this results in middling output, horrid efficiency, greater complexity and less reliability. It doesn't package very well (it's taller than most straight sixes), it doesn't have a particularly good center of gravity. It's a mid engine, longitudinal design, so there's less space. It's one of the least reliable sports cars you can buy. It has nowhere near the racing success and it is several times more expensive. It's gearbox is heavy, finiky and will not last beyond 50k miles.
It almost seems as if Ferrari made it as complex and unreliable as possible. The second transmission in the front of the FF that is designed to slip the clutch whenever you're moving is another example. 3 liter v12s, 4,000 lb two seaters, the fact that getting 100k miles out of one is like getting 300k miles out of anything else. This is why I don't like the way they are engineered.
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Dec. 18, 2011 6:32 p.m. Knurled Dork
mguar wrote: With that as a basis for comment what are your cars? Note: Not what you are, rather who do you tend to see driving your car (or cars) of interest?
Weirdos who make Studebaker enthusiasts look sane and normal.
I do not say this with any ill intent - every person I've met who owned one of these cars - all four of them! - was an okay guy. We're just... we don't really fit anywhere on the player/poser scale. Not even on the Y- or Z-axis.
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Dec. 18, 2011 6:36 p.m. Knurled Dork
alfadriver wrote:
As much as pousers are the bane of, well, everything.
if they did not exist, many of the coolest cars would never...
...last long enough, in good condition, for poor schlubs like me/much of the GRM community to be able to find a nice, cheap example in 20-25 years.
- Have I Mentioned I Am Seriously Looking At Porsche Ownership
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Dec. 18, 2011 8:27 p.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork
mguar wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
Me? I DD a big ol' black SUV. It's older but it's paid for, that way I have disposable toy money.
Don't really care about the poseurs, ballas and playas, they don't register on my radar.
OK Fair enough.. You're probably correct I shouldn't use the language of youth.. Not at 63 &1/2
Those toys you speak of? Do you ever drive one in a race, autocross, or any high speed event? doesn't need to be wheel to wheel. If so then you are a playa.. Do you feel that most of those who own similar toys are playa's or posers. Mind you I'm not saying that if you don't race you are a bad person.. I may not understand why you own a high performance car if you only drive near the speed limit.. but I'll respect your right to own it..Definitions:
Poseur = someone who buys a high end anything for the 'lookit me' aspect only. To them, appearances rule and they are willing to destroy themselves to keep those appearances up. Lots of them are in credit card (and other) debt so deep if they sneeze or fart they will drown. Generally they also have a ginormous two story house in the 'right' part of town and are also bad upside down in it.
Playa/balla = someone who buys a high end car to pick up ho's and bitches (loose women to old coots like us). Those cars usually wear rented 24 inch spinnaz. Their car can ride like a dump truck and handle like a garbage scow but it's gotta look cool so the ho's will hop on board. Kind of the human equivalent of the bowerbird.
I don't really have a problem with someone who owns a high end car unless they are an ass about it, which seems to be the rule. Like the guy who parked his Ferrari in my (clearly marked off) race car parking spot at an autocross in Greer, SC a few years ago, meaning I had to leave my race car in the 'aisle', partially blocking access for other racers. That chapped my ass. But then there was the guy who drove his Ferrari to the top of the Wolf Ridge hillclimb course and was most appreciative of the (mostly home built) machinery which was vying for the Two Minute Club. Really nice fella.
By the way, 53 1/2 here. I have Casper, the 1974 Jensen Healey that I restored myself, the Jensenator (rotary powered Jensen Healey) that I built myself and the Tracker (1980 XS650 Yamaha) that was given to me in boxes and that I resto-modded. I have owned and restored a whole heap of various British tin out of the sheer love of the aggravating damn things. My dad owned 4 XJS's and two E types and was also a hot rod nut, there are some old home movies showing him looping an MG TD on the Sebring airfield race course. (So I guess I come by it honestly.) He worked on his own stuff; he and I restored a 1948 Harley Panhead and a 1932 Plymoth hotrod powered by a SBC and 3 speed. He showed me how to, among other things, to make a gasket out of gasket paper using a small hammer. Then there was the radically customized (and very fast! 327/4speed) 1956 Corvette that he and I put the engine and transmission in and he let me drive before I had a drivers' license. We rode dirt bikes together. So no Pops wasn't a poseur even though he drove Jags.
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Dec. 19, 2011 5:51 a.m. Knurled Dork
Curmudgeon wrote: I don't really have a problem with someone who owns a high end car unless they are an ass about it, which seems to be the rule. Like the guy who parked his Ferrari in my (clearly marked off) race car parking spot at an autocross in Greer, SC a few years ago, meaning I had to leave my race car in the 'aisle', partially blocking access for other racers.
Did you have a set of jackstands that you could afford to do without?
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Dec. 19, 2011 5:43 p.m. mguar Reader
In reply to DaewooOfDeath:
In the 1950's the guys who built Ferrari's were a bunch of hammer wielding, bang it out on a stump sorta guys.. Rumors abound about them running around looking for Cinzanno signs because they were painted on the correct grade of Aluminum.
What made them successful was that lovely V12.. Because they had a lot of piston surface area they were able to make a lot of power. Because they used relatively short strokes reliability came without the exotic.. In the end the potential for power in a given displacement comes from the most piston surface area. (the engine is just a big air pump theory) Now Sticking to a six is fine but there is no substitute for displacement.. To get the sort of power demanded at the high end of the sports car field Porsche has been forced to go with bigger and heavier pistons and rods.. I give them full credit for the success they've had.. Few people remain who know of the connection between Porsche and the VW. Good for Porsche.. Now as to jerks I've met my share who drive either car.. And my share who race both extremely well.. I know of $3000 oil changes with both.. Yes the buy in for a Ferrari is higher and more exclusive. However for that difference you are involved with a company that has won More Formula one championships than anyone. Porsche tried and failed.. This is coming out far more negative than I intended.. Porsche is a fine company.. Ferrari while more exclusive is also a fine company.. Both Jerks a decent people drive either.. -
Dec. 19, 2011 6:18 p.m. mguar Reader
In reply to Curmudgeon: Sounds like you dad was a cool guy, I'm sure I'd like meeting him.. (I take it he looped his MGTD while racing it at Sebring?) Anyone who owned and worked on Jensen Healey's is also cool in my mind.. Having been a racer yourself in my mind that makes you a playa. As for being an Ass, when I spun the bearings on my MGTD that I drove to the race track. The only offer of a trailer came from a Ferrari racer who unloaded his 250 GTO Ferrari and drove it home through weekend traffic. Not long after that happened a 250 Ferrari GTO sold for 15 million dollars..
Hang around the track and some of those Ferrari's are driven at their owners limits.. Some are more or less paraded so the owner can say he did it but I'm sure that's also true at Porsche , BMW. Etc. events.. Frankly I don't care if they are slower than snot in January. show up on the race track and try and you stop being a poser.. -
Dec. 19, 2011 7:58 p.m. Curmudgeon SuperDork
Yep, Dad went to a race down there where you basically showed up, paid your entry, taped your headlights and went racing. His first wife was in charge of the camera and she got a whopping ~15 seconds which included him looping. I think her camera skills were why they got divorced.
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Dec. 19, 2011 8:41 p.m. DoctorBlade Dork
I'd fall in the "Broke" category.
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Dec. 19, 2011 9:42 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
mguar wrote:
In reply to Curmudgeon: Sounds like you dad was a cool guy, I'm sure I'd like meeting him.. (I take it he looped his MGTD while racing it at Sebring?) Anyone who owned and worked on Jensen Healey's is also cool in my mind.. Having been a racer yourself in my mind that makes you a playa. As for being an Ass, when I spun the bearings on my MGTD that I drove to the race track. The only offer of a trailer came from a Ferrari racer who unloaded his 250 GTO Ferrari and drove it home through weekend traffic. Not long after that happened a 250 Ferrari GTO sold for 15 million dollars..
Hang around the track and some of those Ferrari's are driven at their owners limits.. Some are more or less paraded so the owner can say he did it but I'm sure that's also true at Porsche , BMW. Etc. events.. Frankly I don't care if they are slower than snot in January. show up on the race track and try and you stop being a poser..I suspect you're right. The Ferrari club in Northern Nevada is notorious, and that's where I've had literally all my Ferrari owner experiences. Not fair to assume it's that way everywhere.
I also don't have a problem with slower than snot, I race a Daewoo. The problem I was referring to was holding everybody up and refusing to give point buys.
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Dec. 22, 2011 9:36 a.m. mguar Reader
In reply to DoctorBlade:
I'm broke myself.. I'm one of those who's career was destroyed when the banks got greedy and ruined the new housing market.. In the mean time I'm locating the pieces for the next car.. Free is my operating word.. That's all I can afford.. But I've collected a bunch of stuff for the next race car.. it will be cleaned and put up on the shelf. Ready when the employment gods give me the green flag.. I learned that lesson from a Farm buddy of mine who bought a Chevette diesel. Over the years it seemed like every free or near free Chevette diesel found it's way to his farm.. They served as a parts source for his car.. The last 300,000 miles he's been using cooking oil to run it and all the equipment on his farm.. He sent his kids to IVY league schools and they graduated without a single student loan.. His farm is paid for and I don't know if you've followed farm prices lately but his crops reward him with a really great living.. The rule is when you are broke get creative..
