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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Please kind sirs, donate your extensive knowledge on headers

April 8, 2011 11:52 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

Alrighty...

Shopping for headers for the Deathscort.

Seems i have two options:

1) Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-MX6-LS-KLZE-V6-2-5L-93-94-95-96-97-Exhaust-He...

2) Pacesetter (PaceE36 M3ter?): http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pacesetter-Headers-93-95-Mazda-MX6-MX-6-2-5L-V6-70-...

Or i can pay another $200 and get the nicer Pacesetters.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-97-Pacesetter-Ford-Probe-Mazda-MX6-Headers-Ceram...

My questions:

1) I know Pacesetters are known for rusting through ($250 variant). Would the more expensive variant be more resistant to rust?

2) Long tube primaries vs. "shorties." The Ebay units have shorter primaries, 2.0" collectors, 2.5" outlet. The Pacesetter has longer primaries, 2.0" collector, but doesn't saying what the outlet is.

Which in theory should give more power? I'm completely unconcerned with low-end torque. Are the Pacesetters even worth the premium?
April 8, 2011 12:00 p.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

I know theyre not the same but I purchased some no name crap headers for my 4afe corolla from fleabay, and it was a huge difference over stock. Really woke it up. As far as I know, they are still going strong for the new owner and arent rusted or anything (visibly that is). I hit em with high temp enamel and wrapped em in fiberglass tape. I probably spent the difference in cost between the pacesetters and the no names on paint and wrap, but the paint and wrap probably helps protect them a bit, and also keeps exhaust gasses hot, improving respiration. just my .02.
April 8, 2011 12:41 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

Pay far more attention to the collector than to pipe lengths.

Header #1 there is a lousy collector. The pipes just smoosh down exit pipe size. I seriously doubt this "header" flows any better than the stock exhaust manifolds do. In fact, I would not be surprised if it flows worse than the stock manifolds.

Header #2 is an improvement over #1, but still doesn't appear to be anything to crow about. That collector is very short. Doubt this is an improvement over stock either.

Header #3 has no picture, that would take it out of the running for me.

Very generic header statement, short fat pipes produce more high rpm power than long skinny pipes. Long skinny pipes are for low rpm power.
April 8, 2011 12:58 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

Header #3 is the same as header #2, just with a different coating so it doesn't rust in 2 months.

I don't have stock manifolds for this motor, and i'm not sure if putting US-spec stuff would be a great idea due to slightly different exhaust ports i think?

I think my biggest concern should be the weight loss vs. the stock stuff, but i wouldn't say no to an increase in power as well.

Looking at those options... is design #2 worth the premium over design #1? If so, is design #3 worth the premium over #1? (Same as #2, just twice the price for rust protection)
April 8, 2011 1:01 p.m. turboswede SuperDork

The cheaper ones will last longer if you fix the crappy welds and have them ceramic coated inside and out.

Also, pay attention to how they are supported where they are connected to the rest of the system. Flex couplers will help reduce the loads on the flanges.

Even the more expensive ones could use some ceramic coating after a little welding.

BTW, if the collectors are crap, but the pipes are good size and proper lengths, then buy some better collectors and have them put on the cheap header, then coat it.

Header wrap can actually make the rust issue worse and while it does help performance, it doesn't always help longevity.
April 8, 2011 1:18 p.m. tuna55 Dork

CHEAP HEADERS STINK.

Everything said about headers is right so far, but don't cheap out. headers are a pain to install, you only want to do it once, and cheaper headers will leak, break, rust and anything else.
April 8, 2011 1:29 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

tuna55 wrote:

CHEAP HEADERS STINK.

Everything said about headers is right so far, but don't cheap out. headers are a pain to install, you only want to do it once, and cheaper headers will leak, break, rust and anything else.

I'm not sure i have a whole lot of choice here....

If Hot Shot was still making their headers, i'd just get those.

But right now, i don't really have an option that smells like a rose. I have to pick the E36 M3 that smells like the least offensive E36 M3.
April 8, 2011 1:31 p.m. tuna55 Dork

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

CHEAP HEADERS STINK.

Everything said about headers is right so far, but don't cheap out. headers are a pain to install, you only want to do it once, and cheaper headers will leak, break, rust and anything else.

I'm not sure i have a whole lot of choice here....

If Hot Shot was still making their headers, i'd just get those.

But right now, i don't really have an option that smells like a rose. I have to pick the E36 M3 that smells like the least offensive E36 M3.

I would call Dougs headers - I have heard lots of good things. Also Lemons headers, good things as well. just hearsay though. Those are places you'll need to call - no part number in a catalog for most stuff. If I had a car worthy and was Ding it, that's what I would do.
April 8, 2011 1:52 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

tuna55 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

CHEAP HEADERS STINK.

Everything said about headers is right so far, but don't cheap out. headers are a pain to install, you only want to do it once, and cheaper headers will leak, break, rust and anything else.

I'm not sure i have a whole lot of choice here....

If Hot Shot was still making their headers, i'd just get those.

But right now, i don't really have an option that smells like a rose. I have to pick the E36 M3 that smells like the least offensive E36 M3.

I would call Dougs headers - I have heard lots of good things. Also Lemons headers, good things as well. just hearsay though. Those are places you'll need to call - no part number in a catalog for most stuff. If I had a car worthy and was Ding it, that's what I would do.

Eeeeee... custom setup? That might make the agenda/budget for next season, but certainly not now.

It was certainly on the agenda to explore over next winter along with supercharging, though.
April 8, 2011 2:27 p.m. tuna55 Dork

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

CHEAP HEADERS STINK.

Everything said about headers is right so far, but don't cheap out. headers are a pain to install, you only want to do it once, and cheaper headers will leak, break, rust and anything else.

I'm not sure i have a whole lot of choice here....

If Hot Shot was still making their headers, i'd just get those.

But right now, i don't really have an option that smells like a rose. I have to pick the E36 M3 that smells like the least offensive E36 M3.

I would call Dougs headers - I have heard lots of good things. Also Lemons headers, good things as well. just hearsay though. Those are places you'll need to call - no part number in a catalog for most stuff. If I had a car worthy and was Ding it, that's what I would do.

Eeeeee... custom setup? That might make the agenda/budget for next season, but certainly not now.

It was certainly on the agenda to explore over next winter along with supercharging, though.

Don't think "custom", think "built to order". I think they're something around $500 or so for a set for a V8. Not awful. Look at the websites and call them - it doesn't cost anything to ask.
April 8, 2011 2:36 p.m. pres589 Dork

And if it allows you to legitimately apply a "Headers by Doug" decal to your Escort, that would be cool. I say do it.
April 8, 2011 2:55 p.m. oldeskewltoy Reader

based on some recent experiences of mine... does Ford happen to have a superior manifold available.... but maybe in a different market... say a European one?

My recent issue... I'm building an All-Trac Corolla... 4AFE. Current manifold... sucks BIG TIME... most of whats available is "better" (as 4cylndrfury pointed out) BUT, although helping, (the new one), the original is soooo bad, that the cheap ebaY one works.... it is FAAAR superior above 3000 rpm, but in essence no different below 3000 because the jump from port exit to manifold pipe is HUGE - the primary is a full 30% larger then the port.

My solution was I found a factory tube manifold from a newer Toyota 4AFE

The ebaY tube header

The header from Toyota that became available in 1997 for Euro and Japanese markets

For comparison... here is the current manifold
April 8, 2011 2:59 p.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork

Seems like a good excuse to make your own.
April 8, 2011 3:11 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

oldeskewltoy wrote:

based on some recent experiences of mine... does Ford happen to have a superior manifold available.... but maybe in a different market... say a European one?

My recent issue... I'm building an All-Trac Corolla... 4AFE. Current manifold... sucks BIG TIME... most of whats available is "better" (as 4cylndrfury pointed out) BUT, although helping, (the new one), the original is soooo bad, that the cheap ebaY one works.... it is FAAAR superior above 3000 rpm, but in essence no different below 3000 because the jump from port exit to manifold pipe is HUGE - the primary is a full 30% larger then the port.

My solution was I found a factory tube manifold from a newer Toyota 4AFE

The ebaY tube header

The header from Toyota that became available in 1997 for Euro and Japanese markets

For comparison... here is the current manifold

This is common on Toyotas... The 5sfe has the same sort of thing going on, and mazda has it as well with the early EGT manifold vs. Kia manifold.

However, i believe all the factory manifolds for this motor are logs. The only thing i'm unsure about is the factory jap-market KLZE manifolds from the MX6. But, they're a pain to find anyways.
April 8, 2011 3:12 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

93EXCivic wrote:

Seems like a good excuse to make your own.

If i knew how to weld, had a bender, and was halfway smart about all this, i'd try it. I'm used to turbos. Want more power? Bigger turbo, and the biggest exhaust you can possibly fit. The end.
April 8, 2011 3:37 p.m. triumph7 Reader

Can't get around the welding but you don't need a bender. Jegs and others sell "J" bends... pre-bent tube in mild or stainless, just cut and weld. Oh, and there is plenty of info on building headers on the web. Tube lengths, diameters, choice of 4 to 1 or 4 to 2 to 1 all depend on what you want to do, either hi RPM power or lo RPM torque or somewhere in between. Read and learn.
April 8, 2011 4:08 p.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork

triumph7 wrote:

Can't get around the welding but you don't need a bender. Jegs and others sell "J" bends... pre-bent tube in mild or stainless, just cut and weld. Oh, and there is plenty of info on building headers on the web. Tube lengths, diameters, choice of 4 to 1 or 4 to 2 to 1 all depend on what you want to do, either hi RPM power or lo RPM torque or somewhere in between. Read and learn.

This seems like a perfect excuse to get a welder and learn.

It would be cool if you had the time/ money to do this. My Civic has some no name header on it (put on my 2 PO's ago). I don't know if it makes extra power but it does make extra noise.
April 8, 2011 4:08 p.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

oldeskewltoy wrote:

based on some recent experiences of mine... does Ford happen to have a superior manifold available.... but maybe in a different market... say a European one?

My recent issue... I'm building an All-Trac Corolla... 4AFE. Current manifold... sucks BIG TIME... most of whats available is "better" (as 4cylndrfury pointed out) BUT, although helping, (the new one), the original is soooo bad, that the cheap ebaY one works.... it is FAAAR superior above 3000 rpm, but in essence no different below 3000 because the jump from port exit to manifold pipe is HUGE - the primary is a full 30% larger then the port.

My solution was I found a factory tube manifold from a newer Toyota 4AFE

The ebaY tube header

The header from Toyota that became available in 1997 for Euro and Japanese markets

For comparison... here is the current manifold

Yep, half the benefit of the fleabay header was ditching the 900 lb boat anchor / cast iron manifold. Mine was the same as pictured, but not chromed. I used the gasket and a sharpie to "port match" the header to the head as deep as I could get the dremel with the collet extension.

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