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Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » questions about the 2011 challenge rules 1 2

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  Oct. 19, 2010 3:05 p.m. HiTempguy HalfDork

  BTW, the tire thing the OP brings up doesn't matter, only the parts on the car at a specific part of the competition counts. So, your 3 sets of ramz and tires only counts for which set you have on (as long as you don't exceed $2011).

  I also see nothing wrong with trading your said M5 for an $8k car if anybody could have done it. HAVING said that, the challenge (IMO) is a symbol of creativity, not creative accounting. Do you really want to win by what some people might call "questionable" accounting? Sure, you won, but everybody thinks you suck. Having the respect of my peers would be more important than a damn trophy.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 3:07 p.m. 93celicaGT2 SuperDork

  njansenv wrote:

  unevolved wrote:

  93celicaGT2 wrote:

  If i bought a part for the car, and traded it for another part straight up, i don't have to apply FMV to the new part, correct? I can apply what i paid for the first part?

  Example: I pay $150 for a turbo. I end up trading it for a clutch/flywheel package probably worth a bit more. Do i take a FMV hit, or a $150 hit?

  Sure seems fair to me. That's playing the market.

  I'm not sure I agree. For example (near-real scenario): I buy non-running M5 for $2000. Install valve shim (free), trade running car for "some car worth $8000". I'd argue that while that's playing the market, it doesn't really meet the intent of the rules. But I haven't done this "challenge thing"...YET.
  Thoughts? The "playing the market" philosophy can result in a "paper clip like" Ebay game.

  I'm not trading cars, though. Parts, not cars.

  I already have my challenge car. As far as i see it, if you get another whole car, you start over.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 3:13 p.m. Marty! Dork

  HiTempguy wrote:

  BTW, the tire thing the OP brings up doesn't matter, only the parts on the car at a specific part of the competition counts. So, your 3 sets of ramz and tires only counts for which set you have on (as long as you don't exceed $2011).

  I also see nothing wrong with trading your said M5 for an $8k car if anybody could have done it. HAVING said that, the challenge (IMO) is a symbol of creativity, not creative accounting. Do you really want to win by what some people might call "questionable" accounting? Sure, you won, but everybody thinks you suck. Having the respect of my peers would be more important than a damn trophy.

  Not the way I read the rules.

  " 2. All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2010 budget."

  To me that reads that ALL parts need to be budgeted in whole.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 3:41 p.m. HiTempguy HalfDork

  Marty! wrote:

  Not the way I read the rules.

  " 2. All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2010 budget."

  To me that reads that ALL parts need to be budgeted in whole.

  Did something change? I thought that parts not on the vehicle didn't count?

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  Oct. 19, 2010 3:48 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

  That's the beauty and the curse of the Challenge. Compared to most other race series, the rules are very open. The purpose is to have fun and generate editorial content, so keep that in mind.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 4:29 p.m. Karl La Follette HalfDork

  Per Schroeder wrote:

  What Andy said.

  ---don't expect many changes for 2011.

  please bring back friday night prize giveaway , pictures on big screen , JG preshow warmup, roast beast and ham sliced

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  Oct. 19, 2010 4:46 p.m. oldtin HalfDork

  So while we're asking... let's say, I've maxed out my budget and sell down - if you buy a parts car - pull, a turbo off it, then sell the parts car for what you paid for it - fmv for the turbo or free turbo (parts car on CL - anybody could have had it/sold it) - for the record - my challenge car is sold - just wondering...

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  Oct. 19, 2010 4:51 p.m. patgizz SuperDork

  oldtin wrote:

  So while we're asking... let's say, I've maxed out my budget and sell down - if you buy a parts car - pull, a turbo off it, then sell the parts car for what you paid for it - fmv for the turbo or free turbo (parts car on CL - anybody could have had it/sold it) - for the record - my challenge car is sold - just wondering...

  fmv turbo? it cant be free as you maxed out your sell down already.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 5:29 p.m. WilberM3 Reader

  HiTempguy wrote:

  Marty! wrote:

  Not the way I read the rules.

  " 2. All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2010 budget."

  To me that reads that ALL parts need to be budgeted in whole.

  Did something change? I thought that parts not on the vehicle didn't count?

  "parts not on the vehicle" meaning either tools/parts like a wideband that were used for building/tuning but not needed to run during the event. but there's only one 'event' at the challenge and the 'event' includes all 3 categories of performance and presentation.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 5:43 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

  oldtin wrote:

  So while we're asking... let's say, I've maxed out my budget and sell down - if you buy a parts car - pull, a turbo off it, then sell the parts car for what you paid for it - fmv for the turbo or free turbo (parts car on CL - anybody could have had it/sold it) - for the record - my challenge car is sold - just wondering...

  Sounds like a free turbo if you went through the effort to part out an entire car.

  You've only "maxed out" your sell down when you've sold $1005.50 worth of stuff, as I understand it.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 7:29 p.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

  unevolved wrote:

  oldtin wrote:

  So while we're asking... let's say, I've maxed out my budget and sell down - if you buy a parts car - pull, a turbo off it, then sell the parts car for what you paid for it - fmv for the turbo or free turbo (parts car on CL - anybody could have had it/sold it) - for the record - my challenge car is sold - just wondering...

  Sounds like a free turbo if you went through the effort to part out an entire car.

  You've only "maxed out" your sell down when you've sold $1005.50 worth of stuff, as I understand it.

  if you've maxed out your budget and your sell-down, you can't buy a challenge parts car and you can't trade parts anymore. remember, folks, never sell down to zero!

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  Oct. 19, 2010 10:12 p.m. skeze New Reader

  Wow!!! just what i was hoping to see, a ton of usefull information passed between competitors...It'll be my first go 'round so i'm not expecting to do much but have fun building a car ,meeting cool people learning a ton of useful things and sharing my perspective with any one who cares to like what i brought to the show...that being said the whole purpose of the additional sets of wheels was for editorial purposes because who doesn't Love a clean looking car stanced out on a over sized set of nice looking rims,over a clean looking car on a set of wheels that well, miss the mark aesthetically...i could just imagine the editorial reading something like this"Man, what a tight ride, too bad it's sitting on turds"

  now having said that if some one were to find a set of wheels on ebay or cl for $100 that clearly were worth lot's more but were bent or scratched making them worthless and you fixed them to perfection is that considered fair play

  "never sell down to zero"...now that is awesome advice!!!

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  Oct. 19, 2010 10:32 p.m. oldtin HalfDork

  I would say don't assume that pretty trumps purpose or an "it/cool" factor. As well as the thought that a Subaru powered, Porsche suspended Wartburg wasn't the most radical build out there. Build what you want for yourself and have fun.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 10:39 p.m. WilberM3 Reader

  well i think one common misconception, especially for first timers, is the purpose of the concours portion. since the whole event is about creating good editorial content for the magazine, as i see it, it's a chance to explain and show your build to the editors, modifications, interesting bits, well engineered solutions to converting a POS to a highly performing thing, etc. nice wheels and a super clean car certainly wont hurt, but an interesting car with a cool story that isnt ugly will likely be judged higher than just clean and shiny.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 10:42 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  Less common scores higher in the concours.

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  Oct. 19, 2010 11:39 p.m. skeze New Reader

  one more thing just to see if i am getting this right...for example I found another mule just now.dude wants 1350 for it i talked him down to $1005,told him what my plans were and why i needed to keep it at that price and gave him two $100 gift certificates to "PaPPadeaux's@ do the gift certificates count as money or not? also i understand that you can only recoup the amount of $1005 in cash from sales .but I only recoup $1004 leaving $1.50 to play with or wiggle room for trading which is fine...but lets say i still have alot of good parts left over can i trade those parts for other different parts that I may need like trading the air conditioning system for an exaust system, a set of perfect leather seats for some awesome coil overs? ect.. ect..

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  Oct. 19, 2010 11:45 p.m. skeze New Reader

  MrJoshua wrote:

  Less common scores higher in the concours.

  less common in the field of entries or less common in the world? thanks

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  Oct. 20, 2010 12:54 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

  skeze wrote:

  one more thing just to see if i am getting this right...for example I found another mule just now.dude wants 1350 for it i talked him down to $1005,told him what my plans were and why i needed to keep it at that price and gave him two $100 gift certificates to "PaPPadeaux's@ do the gift certificates count as money or not? also i understand that you can only recoup the amount of $1005 in cash from sales .but I only recoup $1004 leaving $1.50 to play with or wiggle room for trading which is fine...but lets say i still have alot of good parts left over can i trade those parts for other different parts that I may need like trading the air conditioning system for an exaust system, a set of perfect leather seats for some awesome coil overs? ect.. ect..

  in this example, the only possible way that the gift certificates would NOT count is if they were available for free to anyone in the world and you just happened to be the person who got them, and even then I believe they'd still count because they are "the same as cash".

  you can trade anything for anything as long as their FMV's are similar and you can prove that similarity. example of proof could be the CL ad you placed to get the trade going, ie "hi i still have alot of good parts left over, would like to trade the air conditioning system for an exaust system, a set of perfect leather seats for some awesome coil overs, ect ect". or you could post a "what's this worth" thread on a message board and use the low / average / high response as your FMV depending on whether you're the buyer (low), the seller (high), or trying to ensure that you don't anger Per (average).

  you can also trade parts to / from yourself, again as long as their FMV's are similar. an example from my first challenge build back in '02: i had a spare transaxle from my parts car, and i had a flywheel/clutch disc/pressure plate in my stash from a previous project. from responses to a "what's it worth" thread on a corvair mailing list i knew each side of the trade was worth about $250, so I made the trade and documented it in my build book.

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  Oct. 20, 2010 12:57 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

  small piece of advice to the OP: don't get caught up spending too much time trying to have every demon tweak on the car. build something solid and drive it before the challenge. get familiar with it. debug it. to finish first, you must first finish.

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  Oct. 20, 2010 7:16 a.m. redzcstandardhatch Reader

  for our 2009$ car (we won the event), we spent 100 on the drag slicks, the hoosier A6's were "real" racer cast-offs. free. he gave them to us. he used them all he felt they had, and wanted them no more
  

  same dude recently junked another set, and we are using them at the 2011 challenge.

  and no, you dont want "concourse" tires. that'd be silly.

  we shopped for parts for gutty for YEARS. like, 3 years, before we ever came to florida. doing this event well is a lot of work! from here on out my goal is simply to have more fun at the event...too much work the first 3 times!

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  Oct. 20, 2010 7:59 a.m. miatame Reader

  redzcstandardhatch wrote: we shopped for parts for gutty for YEARS. like, 3 years, before we ever came to florida. doing this event well is a lot of work! from here on out my goal is simply to have more fun at the event...too much work the first 3 times!

  This is an important point. To build a car on the cheap you really need to collect parts you find for cheap over the years. This requires a lot of storage and a patient wife

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  Oct. 20, 2010 8:21 a.m. bluej HalfDork

  In reply to miatame:

  understatement, you haz it.

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  Oct. 20, 2010 10:57 a.m. JoeyM Dork

  skeze wrote:

  MrJoshua wrote:

  Less common scores higher in the concours.

  less common in the field of entries or less common in the world? thanks

  If the combination of car and drive train in your latest creation is creative enough that the rest of the world shakes their head and mutters in confusion, GRMers will love you.

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