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tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/12/11 9:28 p.m.

Just like the thread says, find me a four cylinder (or other compact, lightweight) engine combo good for 350 HP (with reasonable reliability and area under the curve) for a FWD app. I don't really care about anything else, other than the transmissions have to be able to bolt on with relative ease and not break with that power level.

It's a high number, I know. If I have to go with a six cylinder, or a more weighty engine, we're looking for a bit more HP. Unicorns don't count. Don't tell me about LS stuff, I know about that, even the LS4.

It may not be possible for that level of cost. Ben may chime in and tell me all I have to do is go to the JY and fill a wheelbarrow with parts and throw them together. I dunno.

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
10/12/11 9:36 p.m.

if you can find a decent one... doesn't the 4g63t survive at those levels?

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
10/12/11 9:46 p.m.

Turbo Dodge.

They break into the 500+ hp range on stock internals with some degree of regularity.

I've got a Spirit R/T with the 2.2L T3 (16V Lotus heads) if you want it. Factory rated for 224 hp, this one's bored out to 2.5L with some performance mods. Should be pretty well over 300 already (not tested).

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/12/11 10:06 p.m.
mad_machine wrote: if you can find a decent one... doesn't the 4g63t survive at those levels?

That's the mitsu, right? Can you supply some basic sort of recipe?

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/12/11 10:07 p.m.

In reply to SVreX:

Really? 300HP with a T3 turbo? That's intriguing. Did they come with sticks?

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
10/12/11 10:12 p.m.

Yes.

Mine has a 5 spd. Nearly bulletproof.

garaithon
garaithon New Reader
10/12/11 10:21 p.m.

The TIII lotus head motors are pretty rare, but can make big power! Pat ran one in his shadow a few years ago at the challenge, Im sure he will chime in on the subject.

Travis_K
Travis_K SuperDork
10/12/11 10:29 p.m.

I would say either turbo dodge or vw 16v + turbo. Or the Mazda f2t? The only down side for the turbo dodge engine I can think of is that the stronger 5 speeds are somewhat rare.

njansenv
njansenv HalfDork
10/12/11 10:30 p.m.

Dodge Stratus or PT 2.4 with SRT4 pistons. You could do 260-290 whp and 325wtq on the stock SRT turbo. Bottom end limit is 400+whp. I suspect a savvy buyer could do the setup for $5-600. Use a stock neon trans. (freeish)

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe HalfDork
10/12/11 10:48 p.m.

1.8T vw with Used K04+ in it. Tons of busted up beetles and TT GTI's at the yards.

turboswede
turboswede SuperDork
10/12/11 11:46 p.m.
tuna55 wrote: In reply to SVreX: Really? 300HP with a T3 turbo? That's intriguing. Did they come with sticks?

They all did. They use a distributorless ignition system with a crank sensor fitted to the transmission. It was the strongest transaxle outside of the 5-speed (taken from an aborted Corvette mid-engine project) used in the Maserati TC motor before the SRT4 came along.

BTW, the Maserati DOHC 2.2 motor (cast by Cosworth, BTW) is stronger and has more power potential than the Lotus-designed head. Unfortunately the are pretty damned rare. If you're interested in them, look up Rick Diogo in Florida as he was THE guy for the Maserati head motors. His 400+ HP GLH-S with Maserati drivetrain is stock except for a larger turbo and injectors and programming.

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 HalfDork
10/12/11 11:47 p.m.

If it was RWD, I'd say turbo rotary

turboswede
turboswede SuperDork
10/12/11 11:52 p.m.
njansenv wrote: Dodge Stratus or PT 2.4 with SRT4 pistons. You could do 260-290 whp and 325wtq on the stock SRT turbo. Bottom end limit is 400+whp. I suspect a savvy buyer could do the setup for $5-600. Use a stock neon trans. (freeish)

Needs 2.5L SOHC rods to improve the bottom end strength unless you use a SRT4/PT Turbo bottom end.

The 2.0/2.4 DOHC head physically bolts to the older 2.2/2.5 block and with the proper block mods can be made to work, but the 2.4 DOHC is becoming common enough that it is easier to use that instead of building a Frankenstein monster.

Junkyard_Dog
Junkyard_Dog Dork
10/12/11 11:54 p.m.

Miata+GIANT snail? I know FM can hit that number, and there are much cheaper ways to duplicate their stuff. How long does it need to last? A few autoX runs and drag passes at the challenge should be a bit easier than, say, a 24 hour event at WOT.

ronholm
ronholm Reader
10/13/11 12:15 a.m.
turboswede wrote:
tuna55 wrote: In reply to SVreX: Really? 300HP with a T3 turbo? That's intriguing. Did they come with sticks?

They all did. They use a distributorless ignition system with a crank sensor fitted to the transmission. It was the strongest transaxle outside of the 5-speed (taken from an aborted Corvette mid-engine project) used in the Maserati TC motor before the SRT4 came along.

BTW, the Maserati DOHC 2.2 motor (cast by Cosworth, BTW) is stronger and has more power potential than the Lotus-designed head. Unfortunately the are pretty damned rare. If you're interested in them, look up Rick Diogo in Florida as he was THE guy for the Maserati head motors. His 400+ HP GLH-S with Maserati drivetrain is stock except for a larger turbo and injectors and programming.

and I have me a low mileage Masi engine.. found for way less than challenge money... :)

Jeezz I got LUCKY....

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/13/11 12:15 a.m.

You'll need displacement to hit that number for a low budget, so it makes a lot more sense to start with a 2.4 or 2.5 than a Miata 1.8.

Vigo
Vigo Dork
10/13/11 12:16 a.m.

a 300 hp 4g63 recipe is a stock 4g63 and a 16g turbo, the end.

A 16v dodge motor (lotus or masi) are similar in that they only need a bigger turbo and the fuel/tuning to match.

Not sure what is amazing about 300hp with a t3 turbo. There are t3-frame turbos that could probably support about ~600hp. The STOCK t3 on the lotus 16v is MAXED out at 300chp, but it is achievable.

There arent any stock k04s i know of that are comfortable moving 300hp worth of air. If you were picking a turbo from the get go i would NOT choose a k04 as a starting point.

I also would not start with a stock miata motor. The dodge or mitsu turbo motors will be a LOT (!!) more forgiving of tuning mistakes at that power level.

Pat
Pat Reader
10/13/11 5:19 a.m.

Turbo Dodge easy.

Bone stock 120k mile longblock, 16v Lotus 2.2 in the Shadow - 10.97 @ 129.99 no spray. On a 50 shot, went 10.57 @135.7 with a best mph of 137.1. This was with a 50 trim.

Bone stock motor with more intercooler and boost in a Spirit R/T, unlightened, I've been 12.44 @ 110.1. That works out to well north of 300 whp with a T3 framed stock turbo.

On an stock 8v, had a GLHS with a stock turbo that went mid 12's at 110 all day long.

Current 8v motor in the ScAries has been 11.4's @ 120 in far from ideal conditions. It went 11.4 at the Challenge while it was misting out! This is also a factory bottom end. It's actually the supposed weaker bottom end...non common block and a cast crank. I'm taking the car out shortly to get a good run so I can see what the car will do on a Challenge budget. I'm thinking high 10's/low 11's are coming. Soon.

I have yet to find a more durable, cheaper, easier to modify platform than the dodge 2.2's. They rock.

tuna55
tuna55 SuperDork
10/13/11 7:36 a.m.

OK, so the 2.2 Dodge, 2.4 PT and the 4G63T seem to be the ticket.

First, any NA 6 cylinders that could make that kind of power via the same criteria? Turbos and plumbing have a nonzero weight.

Second, What kind of engine controls are available for the three big hitters in an engine swap situation? Are we talking megasquirt or factory computer retrofits?

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
10/13/11 7:47 a.m.

No mention of SR20, K series, EJ series? Surprising.

It may be moot since its boosted, The GM L32 sc made 260 ponies stock with AC etc. I bet with a bit of monkeying with it, you could get pretty big punch from it. 3800sc is in my game plan...

wspohn
wspohn Reader
10/13/11 7:51 a.m.

Stock LNF Ecotec out of a Cobalt SS runs with stock ECM and a mild tune gives you your 350 BHP and huge torque (350 ft-lbs+). Anywhere up to 500 BHP available with upgrades. Use the transmission too. They hold up quite well.

Taiden
Taiden Dork
10/13/11 7:58 a.m.

Just snag an SR20DE from the early sentra se-r and chuck a giant turbocharger on it. Lots of throwaway parts at sr20-forum.com to do this cheaper.

I envision an SR20DE with a GTI-R manifold and some Holset junkyard turbocharger. The most famous one would be the HX35

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
10/13/11 8:00 a.m.
wspohn wrote: Stock LNF Ecotec out of a Cobalt SS runs with stock ECM and a mild tune gives you your 350 BHP and huge torque (350 ft-lbs+). Anywhere up to 500 BHP available with upgrades. Use the transmission too. They hold up quite well.

uuuhhh...did not know that...

goes and changes entire challenge gameplan

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/13/11 8:02 a.m.

People have posted about the 2.3l Turbo in the T-bird/stang/Merkur being quite stout, too. I have no real knowledge of that engine.

GM has published a book on how to make 1000hp from a Ecotec. Not exactly challenge freindly kind of mods, but it's reasonably capable.

Oh, and the Maserati choice- I keep seeing Maserati Chryslers on E-bay for super cheap. Even if you just want the engine, it may be a good route for that engine.

Good luck with it- good start to an interesting build thread.

njansenv
njansenv HalfDork
10/13/11 8:06 a.m.

Yes, sorry.... I should've mentioned that. When I built mine, I bought the rods/pistons and rings as new sub-assemblies for ~$200 from the dealer. Not sure if they are still that cheap

turboswede wrote: Needs 2.5L SOHC rods to improve the bottom end strength unless you use a SRT4/PT Turbo bottom end. The 2.0/2.4 DOHC head physically bolts to the older 2.2/2.5 block and with the proper block mods can be made to work, but the 2.4 DOHC is becoming common enough that it is easier to use that instead of building a Frankenstein monster.
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