1 2 3
docwyte
docwyte Reader
11/30/11 4:24 p.m.

Brock doesn't get treated like the rest of us. Neither do you Tom, because of your media affiliation.

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
11/30/11 5:55 p.m.

Mr. Brock had a MUCH better experience with Renegade than I did a few years ago. I was surprised to see such praise showered upon Renegade in GRM. They wouldn't even sell me some of their parts because they said what I was trying to do wouldn't work (Chevy V6 into a VW Bug with a Porsche transaxle). If you know me, you know I made it work anyway. I would have preferred they told me they didn't know enough to help me, but instead they told me (on two occassions) that they knew better and it wouldn't work...which wasn't true, they just didn't know any better.

As mentioned above, I think the reception for magazine staff, famous racecar folk, etc. is probably a bit different than the guys trying to spend a few hundred bucks or a couple grand on some bits and pieces. Heck, based on my experience, I'm willing to bet a 996 owner would get a much more welcome attitude than a VW Beetle owner, despite what money they were actually planning on spending. Places like GRM, which have treated me awesome even though (just because?) I am a schmuck, are much easier to appreciate. Is an average 996 owner or somebody like Pete Brock more likely to spend money at your business than me? Sure, but there's no need to be an asshat about it.

To Tom's point, I can appreciate that you value an opinion from somebody like Mr. Brock visiting a company, but that's not to say that EVERY anonymous internet complaint about that company is a fabrication. A thousand screaming dorks will be heard!

Bryce

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
11/30/11 6:28 p.m.
Nashco wrote: A thousand screaming dorks will be heard! Bryce

Not by some I guess
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience with them, but it sounds like you actually got off easy. I've had places that made me work hard to spend my money with them. I can't understand that

RenegadeHybrids
RenegadeHybrids
11/30/11 7:51 p.m.

Some simple facts. People are upset because Renegade purchased a chat board from a gentleman, and a customer of ours, that needed the money. He offered, and we accepted (good business decision and a nice gesture to Doug). We kept the purchase quiet, but the news got out and a few of the board's participants attempted to destroy the years of constructive content. Since those individuals were not interested in anything but name calling, the board was removed. I am sure you can guess who those people might be.

With regard to quality of parts and materials, I believe that Peter Brock, who was overly thorough with his examination of the parts and the engineering of several of the kits, found us to be worthy of an article in GR with his seal of approval. Furthermore, Joe, who spent hours at Renegade as well as tons of time behind the wheel of a converted Porsche, also found that our successful business practices are both ethical and honest.

For a very few of your that still argue that our assistance with Doug's need to sell the board was an attempt to ruin the very air that they breathe, why on earth did we purchase a successful board, not market ONE thing on the board, not blanket the universe with email adds from the 1000+ emails we still have, and ultimately shut it down because it ended up being a juvenile name calling charade?

We have all seen this sort of behavior many times over. Renegade will not lower ourselves to this level. I am sorry that you are about to see how this thread will be a good example of what these folks have done in the past. Just watch...

Scott Mann...Owner...Renegade Hybrids Zone 8 PCA Chief Driving Instructor Las Vegas Region PCA Chief Driving Instructor PCA DE National Committee Member PCA National Instructor Trainer

chandlerGTi
chandlerGTi Reader
11/30/11 8:19 p.m.

Nice. Welcome to the forums, I passed up a 996 cab about six months ago because I didn't find anything about this swap on the interwebs. Looks cool.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
11/30/11 9:06 p.m.

Interesting. I have watched numerous parts vendors hang out on internet forums over the years with varying success. Usually it backfires. Here's my(largely worthless) opinion on how to do it:

Be honest: If you found a part by someone else to include in your kit or just modified it to include, let the forum know. The fabricator and parts swap types that hang out on the forums will sing your praises for it while the vast majority of the buyers will just buy the kit for convenience.

Be perfect with customer service: Your presence means you will have to answer for problems. If you can't fix them or explain them reasonably your presence will do nothing but hurt your business.

Take input not direction: Post pics and information frequently but usually after you have made the decision on direction and completed much of the design. Allowing the forum to argue about every little detail will suck the life out of the process and just make more people mad you didn't include their idea.

Police your forum: If people are being dicks, ban them. Usually getting rid of a few angry people calms everything down. If you end up banning everyone, either you are the problem or the forum game is not for you.

I hope I said something useful to someone.

RenegadeHybrids
RenegadeHybrids New Reader
11/30/11 10:06 p.m.

Bryce...

I am sorry that you had a less-than-positive experience with Renegade. I am quite sure our attempts to discourage you were not an attack on your character. If you look at our web site under Kit Cars and Trasaxles - Photos, you will see a vast array of conversions ranging from Ultima GTR's to a Mini-Cooper Delivery Van. Your Bug project was not the reason for the discouragement.

Most of the bug customers that call to discuss this kind of conversion, usually want to attempt the mid engine application. When you look at the rear torsion bar type suspension, the modifications to make this work in a mid-engine configuation are quite extensive. I do, however, suggest that another pan-based chassis (Porsche 914) be grafted into the rear of the Bug so that the coil-over suspension and wide trailing-arm design will work with the 914 mid-ship placement of the engine. I have seen it done with rather positive results.

If the rear of a Bug is where you would like your V6 to live, I encourage you to consider the 911 curse of Throttle-Off-Oversteer. The extra weight past the rear wheels would be unfortunate.

Then comes the idea of a V6. For years, Renegade built and sold Chevy V6 kits for 911's, 914's, and 944's. Some wonder why we discontinued all of them about 12 years ago. Our biggest reason was excessive vibration. All of the GM V6's from yester-year including the 3.8, 4.3, or the Odd Fire, Even Fire, and even the 60 deg. or 90 deg. engines, have harmonic vibration issues. Just look at the GM line of cars that had these V6's. They all have automatic transmissions. The "juice-drives" as GM called them, helped smooth out the vibration issues with the V6's. Sure, some trucks and delivery vans had manuals, but the majority were automatics.

With the excessive vibration from the V6, came two very obvious negative factors that discouraged conversions. One was the 'humming' or 'droaning' that would resonate in the cabin of the car. The other much more important factor was the premature death to the Porsche transaxles. The vibration would shatter the trannys with 100HP less than comparable use from a V8. Even though we were making money from the V6 kit sales, complaints of broken gear-boxes and cabin noise prompted us to say goodbye to the V6.

If I called a company that gave me bad news every direction I turned, I'm not sure I wouldn't react the same way you have. Now that we have had a chance to revisit some of your original requests, maybe you might see that our experiences have not been positive with regard to your vision. Again...sorry. I would love to know about your success with your V6 Bug!

Scott - Renegade Hybrids

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
11/30/11 10:39 p.m.

Just do your homework people. Not all of the stories about RH were censored.
If after doing your homework you decide to go that direction, good luck.

z31maniac
z31maniac SuperDork
11/30/11 10:43 p.m.

We get it, you've made your point more than a half-dozen times in this thread.

I don't care either way, but geez, have you even personally done business with the company or just repeating the internet stories, true or not.

In fact, don't care. You've made your point.

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
11/30/11 10:46 p.m.
Nashco wrote: As mentioned above, I think the reception for magazine staff, famous racecar folk, etc. is probably a bit different than the guys trying to spend a few hundred bucks or a couple grand on some bits and pieces.

I've been on the receiving end of this behavior more than once. To the point that i have to re-do the work i paid for myself so that it's done correctly.

rotard
rotard Reader
11/30/11 11:09 p.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:
Nashco wrote: As mentioned above, I think the reception for magazine staff, famous racecar folk, etc. is probably a bit different than the guys trying to spend a few hundred bucks or a couple grand on some bits and pieces.

I've been on the receiving end of this behavior more than once. To the point that i have to re-do the work i paid for myself so that it's done correctly.

The engine swap/custom auto business is full of shady companies. I can't tell you how many stories of paid for turbo/engine swap kits that never showed up I've read about on various RX-7/8 forums.

I'm not saying that Renegade is shady, by the way.

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
12/1/11 7:00 a.m.
z31maniac wrote: We get it, you've made your point more than a half-dozen times in this thread. I don't care either way, but geez, have you even personally done business with the company or just repeating the internet stories, true or not. In fact, don't care. You've made your point.

Sorry, sometimes I don't realize the horse is dead and I still keep beating.
I guess it's just the amount of money and effort involved in a radical engine swap. I'd hate to find this out the hard and expensive way.

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
12/1/11 2:05 p.m.
RenegadeHybrids wrote: If the rear of a Bug is where you would like your V6 to live, I encourage you to consider the 911 curse of Throttle-Off-Oversteer. The extra weight past the rear wheels would be unfortunate. Then comes the idea of a V6. For years, Renegade built and sold Chevy V6 kits for 911's, 914's, and 944's. Some wonder why we discontinued all of them about 12 years ago. Our biggest reason was excessive vibration. All of the GM V6's from yester-year including the 3.8, 4.3, or the Odd Fire, Even Fire, and even the 60 deg. or 90 deg. engines, have harmonic vibration issues. Just look at the GM line of cars that had these V6's. They all have automatic transmissions. The "juice-drives" as GM called them, helped smooth out the vibration issues with the V6's. Sure, some trucks and delivery vans had manuals, but the majority were automatics. With the excessive vibration from the V6, came two very obvious negative factors that discouraged conversions. One was the 'humming' or 'droaning' that would resonate in the cabin of the car. The other much more important factor was the premature death to the Porsche transaxles. The vibration would shatter the trannys with 100HP less than comparable use from a V8. Even though we were making money from the V6 kit sales, complaints of broken gear-boxes and cabin noise prompted us to say goodbye to the V6.

Scott...think about this for a second. The GM 4.3 V6 has been sold in many TENS OF THOUSANDS of vehicles with a manual transmission. Literally. Also, the 4.3 has come with a balance shaft (to reduce vibrations) for 20 years now. No kidding. GM still sells the 4.3 today, and up until 2007 it still came with a manual trans and a 100k mile powertrain warranty. It can't be all bad.

As I pointed out on the phone a few years ago, snap throttle oversteer, droning on highways, etc. is not a concern on a convertible baja Bug...this isn't a highway machine, and it's definitely not a corner carver. I think it's great that you try to inform customers why you don't like selling X part for Y application, even if you are spreading misinformation with the best intentions. However, when somebody says, "Thanks for input. Will you sell me the part?" it may be worth considering selling the part with a disclaimer that you don't RECOMMEND it, but it will work. That's something a customer would like to hear a lot more than, "No, it won't work," when it clearly WILL work.

Food for thought for the next idiot that calls Renegade and happens to have a free engine, a bright idea, and a desire to give you money in exchange for parts.

Bryce

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/1/11 2:22 p.m.

Do you guys still swear a 928's handling will be ruined if you put the "too light" LS1 in it?

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
12/1/11 3:57 p.m.

OH man, I think a LSX 928 would be sweet. They look great, I love the interiors and the bay is made for a V8.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/1/11 4:00 p.m.

In reply to DrBoost:

To answer my own question-they did start selling kits since I last checked. The LS1 being too light was always a pretty unsound argument to not sell kits in my mind.

...and yeah, I dream of a nasty 500ish whp 6.0 LSx 928.

turboswede
turboswede SuperDork
12/1/11 6:38 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: OH man, I think a LSX 928 would be sweet. They look great, I love the interiors and the bay is made for a V8.

Heh, the 924/944 engine bay is technically wider. Just sayin...

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/1/11 6:58 p.m.
turboswede wrote:
DrBoost wrote: OH man, I think a LSX 928 would be sweet. They look great, I love the interiors and the bay is made for a V8.

Heh, the 924/944 engine bay is technically wider. Just sayin...

The 928 uses the stock brake booster while you have to find an alternate solution in the 944 right?

RenegadeHybrids
RenegadeHybrids New Reader
12/1/11 9:02 p.m.

The 928 conversion is easy and very effective. Both the Auto and Manual transaxles are well suited for the conversion, the brakes and suspension are matched well, the engine bay is perfect, and the car really comes to life with less weight and more power.

When Porsche built the 928, they were very conscious of the weight in the front of the car. Frontal body parts were made lighter and heavy items, like the battery, were positioned rearward to offset the heavy V8.

When you do a conversion with the lighter LS series V8 and you compare engine size and weight, you are doing the car a favor in more ways than you might imagine.

First, the later twin-cam motors are over 200 lbs. heavier than the all aluminum LS series V8's and there is still a 160+ lb. weight advantage over the early Porsche V8's.

Secondly, the Porsche V8 engine was a top-heavy beast that did not help cornering and agility.

Lastly, the physical size of the 928 V8 was astounding for the smaller displacement, and the inability to get to much of anything on the motor without major surgery first, really limited repairs and maintenance.

Once you install the Chevy power, you can see ground around 70% of the engine when it sits in the front of a 928. The torque wakes up this touring car that really needed the low-end boost from the beginning. ...AND the handling is much improved due to the lighter weight and lower center of gravity. To feel the dramatically quicker turn-in really catches most off guard who are familiar with the 928.

I have raced a converted, non-sunroof, Euro, 928 for years and have had many an opportunity to drive tons of other cars...including Porsche V8 powered 928 race cars. The reduction of weight in the front of the 928 with the GM conversion is a huge advantage in every way.

We are currently building two converted '28's. One will be at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch next weekend piloted by the customer who will be driving it for the first time with a 520HP LS3. Good times!

Scott >>> Renegade Hybrids

Javelin
Javelin SuperDork
12/1/11 9:03 p.m.
MrJoshua wrote:
turboswede wrote:
DrBoost wrote: OH man, I think a LSX 928 would be sweet. They look great, I love the interiors and the bay is made for a V8.

Heh, the 924/944 engine bay is technically wider. Just sayin...

The 928 uses the stock brake booster while you have to find an alternate solution in the 944 right?

Ma GM invented HydroBoost for a reason...

Canute
Canute New Reader
12/1/11 9:19 p.m.
MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/1/11 9:47 p.m.

So you guys removed the thing on your site about the LS1 being too light and harming the handling then?

RenegadeHybrids
RenegadeHybrids New Reader
12/1/11 10:31 p.m.

We have been selling the LS series conversion kits for the 928's for years.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/1/11 10:38 p.m.
RenegadeHybrids wrote: We have been selling the LS series conversion kits for the 928's for years.

It may not have been when you guys owned the business, but when the business was only selling LT1 conversions for 928's there was a long explanation on the site about how the LS1 was a bad conversion because it was too light and would ruin the handling of the 928. I seriously hope it wasn't you guys because it was silly.

Conquest351
Conquest351 HalfDork
12/2/11 8:09 a.m.

I just wanted to nut ride for a second.

I was able to visit Renegade Hybrids about 2 years ago when I was visiting Las Vegas with the wife. I met Scott and he took me and a friend of mine on a tour of the facility and was extremely nice. I even talked to him about the project I'm working on with my friend overseas building the little cars I made a thread about not too long ago. Scott offered advise and help in marketing and distributing them as well as interest in possibly buying one.

My GodFather has been dealing with Renegade for 20 years or more doing swaps in 911's, 914's, 944's, etc. and has never had any sort of negativity towards the company. I understand from being in this business that all you ever hear are the negative words, the positive words go unsaid. You can be the best company in the world and have 99% customer satisfaction, but that one percent will scream and yell about how horrible your company is while the 99% sit there and quietly shake their heads in disagreement. It's just the facts of life and the life of a business.

Sorry, just had to chime in.

Continue...

1 2 3
Our Preferred Partners
u5bb3EJr5qBk3G44a70C1cWTOTly4zaWALNWQxI0vHZlRHyHmyRQOf9MXoemrfez