R&T made me really, really sad with a hot take on sports cars...and they might be right

z31maniac said:

This is why I like the "Xennial" description, roughly 77-84 birth years. I turn 37 next month. 

We grew up without social media in high school or cell phones. I didn't have a cell phone until my sophomore year of college, and I still didn't really need one. But also grew up with technology..........Oregon Trail anyone? :)

I was born in 79 and I certainly wouldn't put myself in that box. Or even conventional Gen X. 

My parents were both born in the 30's. I grew up with parents that had vastly different values than those of my peers. I was never really on the same wave length as people my age and generally got along better with people that are much older than myself. 

I learned to type on a type writer but had an Atari to play pole position on. 

Nick Comstock said:

z31maniac said:

This is why I like the "Xennial" description, roughly 77-84 birth years. I turn 37 next month. 

We grew up without social media in high school or cell phones. I didn't have a cell phone until my sophomore year of college, and I still didn't really need one. But also grew up with technology..........Oregon Trail anyone? :)

I was born in 79 and I certainly wouldn't put myself in that box. Or even conventional Gen X. 

My parents were both born in the 30's. I grew up with parents that had vastly different values than those of my peers. I was never really on the same wave length as people my age and generally got along better with people that are much older than myself. 

I learned to type on a type writer but had an Atari to play pole position on. 

I was born in March '82. I remember playing computer games in school, and also remember taking a typing class with typewriters in 7th grade. I graduated high school in 2000. And I think my girlfriend at the time was the only person I knew that had a cell phone. 

But it sounds like your parents were much older than mine when they had you. Both of mine were born in the 50s and have kind of a hippie world view.

Sorry, my intent wasn't to make things political. I just feel like I'm constantly hearing about stuff that millennials and younger are "killing", be it golf, Applebee's, sports cars, motorcycles, or rock and roll. Or reading tired judgments about how we're all lazy, phone-addled baristas with useless liberal arts degrees because we do different things for fun.

I think that the rise of Uber and self-driving cars will eventually be a boon to the "fun" vehicle market. The less people depend on cars for boring, practical transportation, the more it'll make sense to own something for pure enjoyment. And the more freedom automakers (at least, what'll be left of them) will have to design vehicles only for fun.

Imagine a world where, instead of owning a commuter car, you dial up a self-driving Uber that takes you to work, or to the grocery store, cheaply and quickly. All of a sudden, there's no pressure to buy a CUV for practicality reasons -- driving is going to be purely a hobby, and you're going to feel a lot freer to buy something fun and impractical.

In some ways, I think the newer tech will make motorsport more accessible. I love ICE cars and all the quirks and stuff involved, but imagine if you could own a bitchin' track car with the low maintenance of an electric motor? You wouldn't need a bunch of garage space and tools to work on it.

Sure, something would be lost -- the art of shifting and the incredible sound of an ICE engine really roaring. But, you could argue that going from horses to cars, we lost that visceral connection between human and animal, that tangy scent of horse manure and saddle leather.

I think that we're just in a transitional period right now -- ICE sports cars are starting to look and feel old-fashioned, and the new tech isn't quite ready for primetime.  A lot of young people I've met who otherwise don't give a damn about sports cars think Teslas are cool as hell, because they are new and exciting and different...and in a lot of ways blow ICE cars away.

So, I don't think sports cars are dead, I think we're just in a lull waiting for the next big thing.

In reply to monkeyodeath :

I didn't see your post as overly political, but rather a completely honest answer to the questions asked--and therefore full of some uncomfortable facts. Thanks for that and for the follow-up above. Agree we're in a transitional phase, and it may well be awaiting the next big leaps forward with photovoltaic cells and electrical storage.

monkeyodeath said:....

I think that the rise of Uber and self-driving cars will eventually be a boon to the "fun" vehicle market. The less people depend on cars for boring, practical transportation, the more it'll make sense to own something for pure enjoyment. And the more freedom automakers (at least, what'll be left of them) will have to design vehicles only for fun.

Imagine a world where, instead of owning a commuter car, you dial up a self-driving Uber that takes you to work, or to the grocery store, cheaply and quickly. All of a sudden, there's no pressure to buy a CUV for practicality reasons -- driving is going to be purely a hobby, and you're going to feel a lot freer to buy something fun and impractical.

In some ways, I think the newer tech will make motorsport more accessible. I love ICE cars and all the quirks and stuff involved, but imagine if you could own a bitchin' track car with the low maintenance of an electric motor? You wouldn't need a bunch of garage space and tools to work on it.

Most encouraging comment on this entire thread.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Yep.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

You may have something there. With the advent of the horseless carriage horses as transportation quickly were replaced.  20 years later that pretty much had occurred. 

The hidden advantage is increased speed.  When drivers are replaced by computers reaction times will be the speed of light, lane wandering will end, stop signs will be replaced with electronics telling which cars to go what speed so collisions  no longer occur.  

Bottom line? Commute times will be a small fraction of today’s.  

In the 1950’s I used to ride with my Grandfather in his Ford model A pickup. The speed limits on the roads were the same as today.  Just like horses in the 1880’s are about the same speed as the 1780’s and today 

A whole new method needs to be used  to make a speed increase.  Computer controlled self driving  cars is that new technology. 

Remember when electronic fuel injection would be the death of the enthusiast?  That didn't happen either. I'm not worried about it, because I bought my sports car. I plan on keeping it forever. 

frenchyd said:

Bottom line? Commute times will be a small fraction of today’s.  

I have my doubts.  The tolerance for crazy commute times will remain, but the distance traveled will be farther, making sprawl even worse :(

frenchyd said:

The hidden advantage is increased speed.  When drivers are replaced by computers reaction times will be the speed of light, lane wandering will end, stop signs will be replaced with electronics telling which cars to go what speed so collisions  no longer occur.   new technology. 

Only if ALL the cars on the road are computer controlled. A car driven by an off-grid unknown (e.g.: A human) introduces a variable that is most likely outside the operating limits of a computer network. At the very least, all cars will have to have transponders that communicate with a central control office.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Growth means more people.  Ya gotta put them someplace. Either up or out. 

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

That will happen quickly enough.  People stopped riding horses into town pretty quickly with the advent of the car. 

They may start out with a lane given to purely self drive cars, as they gain acceptance go to mostly self drive car lanes and leave one lane for Human driven cars.  Eventually doing away with even that. ( in the interest of safety) 

In reply to Brett_Murphy :

Google's been running a self-driving car fleet for years in the Bay Area, among human drivers, with an extremely low incidence rate. It's arguably a safer driver around humans than an actual human.

These companies know that they can't just make everyone switch...the tech would be a lot easier to develop if that was the case.

Instead, they are pouring billions of dollars into AI that can anticipate and live alongside human drivers. Nobody's really talking about self-driving only car lanes.

By the time this technology is accepted and mature, the software is going to be able to handle pretty much any weather/road/human driver condition.

In the future, I can see freeways in very congested areas being self-driving only -- to increase the speed and efficiency traffic. Don't think it makes as much sense on surface streets or minor roads.

Overall, it's hard to see how it's a bad thing. Car accidents kill tens of thousands of people a year in this country. Getting drunk, drowsy, and distracted people away from a steering wheel is probably going to save a lot of lives.

I can't say I'd turn down the opportunity to be chauffeured around each day, kicking back with a beer after work while a robot handles boring traffic driving for me. Or dialing in the address of my parents' house, going to sleep, and waking up at my destination. You know, the kind of driving where an exciting, fun, interesting car starts to drive you nuts.

It's definitely interesting to think of how the driving hobby role will change with all of this. Keeping my fingers crossed that it'll enable a future of really focused enthusiast driving. I know opinions are mixed on Elon Musk, but I'm glad to see that he's into fast, sexy cars -- hopefully he'll help carve out a place for them in whatever future we're moving towards.

In reply to monkeyodeath :

Well said, with regard the future of driving for pleasure we are already pretty well there. Like owners of horses they ( horses) tend to be kept together to await their owners time to enjoy them.  

With cars they gather at race tracks where drivers are sober, informed and all going in the same direction.  ElkartLake already has homes you can buy for when you want to come and play with your cars.  Isn’t that the future? 

I am torn as far as the commute goes. Part of me loves that I daily drive my RX7. It's fun, it's a conversation starter, it gets plenty of attention. Sometimes I leave the autocross numbers on after the weekend, for my commute to work. On the other hand, there is a part of me that wouldn't mind getting chauffeured to work, not really having to worry about the guy next to me cutting me off.

But for me part of the joy of "fun car" ownership is getting out there and [i]driving[/i] it. I like taking my RX7 to the grocery store, to the gas station, to pick up friends... I wouldn't want to lose that, or at least the option to take it out and drive it. When's the last time you saw someone riding a horse down the street? Would track-side homes become the new stables, and race tracks the new riding trails? I wouldn't want that.

In reply to TheRX7Project :

That’s what is happening st Elkhart  Lake.  Track side homes.  

As far as performance cars on public streets.  I’m not a fan 2 real reasons.  

Any  performance over the posted limit and you assume a massive liability.  Plus it simply isn’t fair to those unaware of your intentions.  Mom walking the dog, kids riding their bikes, novice or nervous drivers startled by your speed?  Not cool, not cool! 

And there is the whole issue of the poseur!  We’ve all met them. They always have the fast, flashy, car and never use it for anything other than showing off. Afraid to “hurt it” !  

In reply to frenchyd :

You do realize you can drive a performance car on the street without hot dogging it around, right? At least I can...

Oh E36 M3 i have a sports car and a tilley hat, i’m such a nerd

Patrick said:

Oh E36 M3 i have a sports car and a tilley hat, i’m such a nerd

But do you have string back driving gloves and a scarf?

frenchyd said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Growth means more people.  Ya gotta put them someplace. Either up or out. 

Not sure what this has to do with my comment?

TheRX7Project said:

I am torn as far as the commute goes. Part of me loves that I daily drive my RX7. It's fun, it's a conversation starter, it gets plenty of attention. Sometimes I leave the autocross numbers on after the weekend, for my commute to work. On the other hand, there is a part of me that wouldn't mind getting chauffeured to work, not really having to worry about the guy next to me cutting me off.

But for me part of the joy of "fun car" ownership is getting out there and [i]driving[/i] it. I like taking my RX7 to the grocery store, to the gas station, to pick up friends... I wouldn't want to lose that, or at least the option to take it out and drive it. When's the last time you saw someone riding a horse down the street? Would track-side homes become the new stables, and race tracks the new riding trails? I wouldn't want that.

I actually saw two people riding horses in downtown Temple just last week. I was kinda shocked. 

I used to be totally on the opposite side of this argument. But living basically car free for the last five or so years has changed my perspective. I'd love to see more EVs, less people that have absolutely no business having a DL in the first place behind the wheel. All that is moving us in a better direction. 

As far as sports cars go I've never really been into them. Muscle cars and European GTs are where my heart is. But if it all went away I'd be perfectly ok with that too.

A lot of performance trends seem to be cyclical. The '60s muscle cars got killed off and replaced by "personal luxury coupes" which could give a modern Camry lessons in boring in stock trim.

There was a huge sports car die-off at the early '80s, with Triumph and MG disappearing from the US shores, Fiat sports cars being dropped with Malcom Bricklin trying to continue them, DeLorean (and Bricklin's previous venture before the Fiats) crashing and burning, and more.

Then at the end of the '90s, the Japanese supercar boom fizzled out, and SUVs took the blame.

In reply to Nick Comstock :

You may be the only one (here anyway) that would be OK with cars / the driving experience "going away". I know I, for one, would not welcome it.

I don't think it ever will truly go away anyway, but I could see it going the way of riding horses- we would be "shocked" to see someone driving their own vehicle, and the only places you really see them are on closed courses, and the only people who can afford them are those with plenty of disposable income. I really hope it never comes to that.

In reply to TheRX7Project :

I think America is too big to realistically switch over to autonomous taxis nation wide. I can see cities and larger towns banning human driven cars within their limits however. 

The good news is it's no fun to drive in the cities anyway and most of the interesting driving roads are way out in the sticks. 

I don't think I'll see this change in my lifetime however. 

Don't get me wrong I still really enjoy driving. But I no longer believe it's a necessity for me to have a happy and fulfilled life. 

Some form of car based transportation will hang on until it can be replaced with something more practical.

The enthusiasm for cars will hang on longer, but will wane over time. Just like it did with horses. Horse racing was hugely popular in the pre-war years through the 50s and 60s.

But I wonder, when is the last time anyone on this forum went to a horse race? I grew up around harness racing, got my trainers and driver's licenses, and I haven't seen a race (live, not on TV) for more than 10 years. Tracks have been closing since the 80s.