Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 5:47 p.m.

...and can I mate one to a Windsor 302?

I have a 1963 Ranchero with a 1973 302 and a (retch, gag) C4 automatic.

I have an old S-10 T5 to rob of its tailshaft housing in order to move the shifter forward on the T5 from a 1990-ish ('87-'93) Mustang. Modern Driveline makes a super-sexy forward-shifter tailshaft housing with a super sexy price to match, hence the S-10 part.

I've been looking for said Mustang trans, but they're neither as cheap nor as plentiful as one would hope for old Ford parts.

Still with me? Good. What I've noticed is that 2005-10 (S197 Mustang) 4.0 V6s got a T5 as well. Newer, more plentiful, and cheaper. ADDED BONUS: While it's possible it sticks up high enough to be an issue, this version already has its shifter right behind the primary case, much further forward than the older Mustang T5s, and I think in a reasonable spot for the Falcon.

There are a couple of issues, and this is where I'm hoping somebody knows something:

  1. I'm having a lot of trouble finding info about what this thing has for an input shaft, so I don't know whether it might work with a plain old 302/5.0 bellhousing and clutch and so forth.
  2. Deep first gear, and somewhat less problematic, a less tall overdrive.

If the input shaft and first gear can be fixed in one fell swoop (say, by swapping in the input shaft from a '90-ish car), this starts to look very promising. Unfortunately, even the most informative-looking post I'd found over on rallyanarchy  referenced a spiffy book's guide to T5 parts swapping, but that book was published in 2005, and so doesn't appear to get into the later Mustang's T5.

I'm baffled at how little info I'm finding on the later T5. Anybody know anything about this adaptation, about the trans in general, or have any good resources for trying to track down more info?

I may be prematurely sour-graping, but some of the cost saving is probably eaten by needing a more complex driveshaft, since this one no longer uses the old slip yoke, and the shaft needs to accommodate the length changes itself.

EDIT: dawns on me I could probably have avoided some confusion by showing just how different the darned thing looks from most of the Mustang T5s...

QuasiMofo
QuasiMofo MegaDork
3/12/18 5:50 p.m.

Contact Liberty transmission to see of the trans to bell bolt pattern is the same.

 

I'e got a spare 1996 Camaro V6 T5 for next to nothing if you need any of the parts.

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
3/12/18 6:29 p.m.

Input shaft and bearing retainer are the only differences between the two models. Guy I raced with used core upto ‘04 v6 ones from the dealer pile for two yrs without issue.

To use the s10 tail, you need to use the housing, shift “plate”, and even possibly the tail shaft, depending on the speedo.

Biggest difference is the hydraulic clutch on ‘05-up and guibo.

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 6:34 p.m.

In reply to Ranger50 :

Are we talking about the same trans? It dawns on me I may have muddied the waters by starting to talk about the S-10 stuff. The appeal of the S197 T5 is that it looks like it already has the shifter in a good spot and wouldn't need the tailshaft housing swap.

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 6:35 p.m.

In reply to QuasiMofo :

Thank you! Leads!

jimbbski
jimbbski Dork
3/12/18 7:08 p.m.

One of the links you posted answers question #1. The V6 trans is a V8 T5 other then the length of the input shaft. Starting in 1994 they started using longer imput shafts. Depending on the number of gear teeth the input shaft has you may be able to retro fit an input shaft that's shorter but has the same number of gear teeth.

The spline size and count isn't really an issue as any clutch disc with the same spline size and count and diameter is all you need.

As for question #2.  You can change your final drive gear in your rear end to a higher ratio negating the short 1st gear somewhat or you can swap in the gear set from a earlier T5 out of a 5.0L Mustang.  There are some alt. 5th gear sets but the .72 is really not bad. There is a commonly available 0.80 gear set for the Ford T5's but it only gives that ratio with the 2.95 first gear set. With the 3.35 first gear set it's more like 0.92. In your trans I'm not sure what it would be.

I will have to say that Some GM T5's had better 5th gear ratios (Less tall) but you can't use any of them in a Ford T5.  GM used a 27 spline main shaft and Ford used a 28 spline.

I've rebuilt about 6-7 seven of these trans.  I currently have a Ford V8 T5 apart waiting to be repaired and parts for a GM T5 for parts that striped the gear teeth off the input shaft. Some of the early T5's (Non-world class)  had different trans to bell bolt patterns but most of the WC cases all had the same bell bolt pattern.

There's some good info on YouTube at "GearBoxVideo"

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 7:19 p.m.

In reply to jimbbski :

I'm still a bit confused about the generations of V6 transmissions; you're referring to 1994, but that was a different V6 (the 3.8 which is, according to at least one rumor I've heard, three quarters of a Windsor V8, while the S197 is a Cologne 4.0) and a different generation of the T5. Isn't it?

This link from Modern Driveline breaks it down, and has a good pic of the S197 (2005-2010) changes about 3/4 way down the page, though there's also an earlier paragraph spelling out the '94-'95 changes you refer to.

tester
tester New Reader
3/12/18 7:40 p.m.

In reply to Ransom :

Are you sure that you want the S10 mid-shift setup?  A regular Foxbody T5 is pretty bolt in for early Mustangs. The S10 shifter might be under the dash. 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/12/18 7:50 p.m.

I'm pretty sure that the newer the Mustang, the longer the input shaft is.

 

I was unaware that they made T5s beyond the 3.8 SN95s.  I thought they were all T45s after the SN95.

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 7:52 p.m.

In reply to tester :

Yep. Falcons are laid out a bit differently from Mustangs. The S-10 tailshaft keeps you from running the shifter straight into the bench seat cheeky

buzzboy
buzzboy Reader
3/12/18 8:12 p.m.
Knurled. said:

I was unaware that they made T5s beyond the 3.8 SN95s.  I thought they were all T45s after the SN95.

The T45 was supposedly pretty weak and was outlived by the T5 that it replaced. It was used on 96-01 4.6 cars and was replaced by the TR3650 from 01 to 10 in V8 cars. The TR3650 is a fantastic transmission.

QuasiMofo
QuasiMofo MegaDork
3/12/18 8:53 p.m.

Oh and there are TWO GM v6 transmissions. 4.3 and 2.8/3.1/3.4/3.8 The 60* bell transmission is different.

Which is what I have

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/12/18 11:29 p.m.

I was digging around and found a site which had a bunch of T5 interchange info in one spot, and decided to drop them a note asking whether they might want to update to include the 2005-2010 stuff, since they seemed better placed than myself to know the concerns. I got a really quick, concise reply from Stan at Pro-ForcePerformance.com:

The 2005 input shaft is longer than any other T5. There is not another input shaft that works with that gear set. It would be possible to build one using the popular Fox Mustang gears in that shorter case. Then it would bolt to a more common bell housing. Larger issues are that the 05 T5 doesn't use a driveshaft with a yoke and the shifter connection is just a rod sticking out the back that is pushed, pulled, and twisted in order to select the gears. It is just considered to be too hard to adapt.

I'm actually less concerned about sorting a shifter and using an S197 style driveshaft than getting it mated to a Windsor, but the lack of an interchangeable input shaft pretty much puts paid to this idea. If I had to source an earlier T5 for its gearset, I'd already have a trans I could just stick my S-10 tailshaft housing on and be done...

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/13/18 1:12 a.m.

I thought the 60 degree GM used a Ford case with a Chevy length input shaft.

 

Just to keep things interesting, of course.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
3/13/18 3:04 a.m.

In reply to Ransom :

The gearing issue is quickly and easily solved using taller tires. Plus a taller tire will actually put more rubber on the road for a given width. ( ever wonder why a dragster uses such a tall tire)? 

 

pres589
pres589 PowerDork
3/13/18 3:31 a.m.

My gut tells me some machine shop is experienced doing input shaft mods to allow for you to mate the case up to an existing bellhousing.  My brain doesn't know of any such shop.  In theory it's a slice off & spline machining job, right?

The driveshaft issue should be fixable using a donor driveshaft and more machine work.  Agreed that it seems minor vs. getting the trans into agreement with your engine.  Same as the gearing issues; just get something tall into the axle.

QuasiMofo
QuasiMofo MegaDork
3/13/18 4:23 a.m.
Knurled. said:

I thought the 60 degree GM used a Ford case with a Chevy length input shaft.

 

Just to keep things interesting, of course.

That's what I thought as well. I was wrong. 

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/13/18 10:31 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd (and pres589) :

I've already done considerable poking to obtain a 3.73:1 axle, and I'm crossing my fingers that a 205/60-15 will fit in this old Ranchero without too much jiggery-pokery. Moreover, it's not that the S197 is geared too low overall, really just that first is on the low side, with apparently a larger gap to second than the 2.95 or 3.35(I think?) ratios common on the '87-'93 T5.

In any case, what with the cut/respline/unknown/etc, this is no longer looking like a less expensive/easier approach than simply using the S-10 tailshaft housing on a Fox-platform Mustang T5. The original motivator was that I was finding virtually no older T5s, rebuilds of that era seemed, if not hideous, just more than I was expecting to pay for old and common Ford bits (especially after eating the core charge), and the S197 box is plentiful, with a local yard having one for $460.

It might be worth pursuing, but I don't think I'm the person or this is the project to motivate the last push through finding out the necessary input shaft mods.

jimbbski
jimbbski Dork
3/13/18 11:53 a.m.

I hear you on the lack of Fox  Mustang T5's out there based on the number of manual trans Mustangs built during all those years.

I am always on the look out for used ones for sale on Craig's List.

I've bought a very good one about a year and a half ago for $100 and went through it with new bearings and a couple of syncros. I sold it and make a few bucks for my trouble.

I also picked up a Mustang II bell for a 2.8L V6. This has the same bolt pattern as the Fox T5 and will bolt up to all 2.8L and I think 2.9L Cologne engines.

I have a friends '74 Capri with a 2.8L that will now get a T5 in place of the 4 sp.

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/13/18 11:54 a.m.

In reply to Ransom :

What about $200 four cylinder T5 and $400 reproduction 3.35 gearset?

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/13/18 3:14 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

Well that's interesting! Got a link?

EDIT: I got all kinds of excited thinking I could throw that gearset in the S10 trans, then remembered the GM case is different, but it's still a compelling idea as long as I really can find an appropriate 4-cyl T5 cheap...

pres589
pres589 PowerDork
3/13/18 3:58 p.m.

In reply to jimbbski :

This thread got me thinking about my Capri, now gone to the scrapper, and what a 4.0 SOHC V6 & this T5 would be like.  They can even be made to sound decent, per a few YoutTube videos I found of dyno runs and such.  

Wishing I had a shop, and time...

Our Preferred Partners
wAjj11PPr162JKbddVClcBmduOQvtOxB2Vfdh7PNspmMjmKimJ2krT3dLcx3hckX