S2000 EPS: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

Subscribe get a full year for only $23.95 Sample Free Test Drive—no strings attached

May 25, 2009 2:44 p.m. chaparral New Reader

So I'll be getting a new car sometime soon, probably a 2001-03 S2000. I enjoyed driving it a lot; it's ergonomically pretty good, the engine is a freak of nature, the gearbox is great, and the chassis is fun. Even the brakes are competent.

The one thing that gets me is the Electric Power Steering. It's awful. I drive a Miata, a CRX, and a sprint kart, all with manual steering that lets you know exactly what's happening on the ground, and that inspires both confidence and competence. The S2000, by contrast, has steering feel that's so bad that it's probably why a lot have been crashed.

I have two questions: 1) How the hell could Honda think this was tolerable? 2) Can it be disabled without affecting the rest of the car?
May 25, 2009 2:56 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

I think the deal with the earlier S2000s crashing isn't really a factor of the steering. I think primarily it's how they're driven by the sort of people who drive them. The next major issue after that is the rear suspension geometry. The 2.0L S2000s are prone to severe trailing-throttle oversteer.

I don't know about de-powering the rack. If it's electric, seems like de-powering it should be fairly simple.
May 25, 2009 3:00 p.m. Will Reader

I'm not positive this will carry over to an electric power rack but remember that conventional power racks have much different ratios than non-power racks. De-powering a power rack typically makes for insanely heavy steering.
May 25, 2009 3:04 p.m. Tyler H Dork

Buy it. Rent a Charger for a weekend. Then the S2K steering will feel great.

S2K power steering feel > Miata power steering.

Manual steering on a light car is great, but it's a thing of the past. (Because light cars are gone.)
May 25, 2009 3:09 p.m. GregTivo Reader

Considering the S2000's success in autox, apparently its not sooo dismal.
May 25, 2009 5:04 p.m. carguy123 Dork

Get a good alignment. I've had an S since '02 plus have driven many others and feel the steering feedback is excellent. I had a 99 Miata and an S2000 at the same time and I put the S right up there with the Miata if not a little higher.

And most of the S2000 crashes seem to come from fanbois who have never driven a RWD car in their life. Reaction patterns are different on a RWD than a FWD.
May 25, 2009 5:31 p.m. rookie_s New Reader

i don't know why Honda did it, but my guess is that it had to do with the weight and mechanical drag issues that are not as severe on an EPS system. I've never heard of anyone disconnecting the EPS but lots of things are possible.

I can tell you that, in my opinion, when you put wider tires up front on the stock wheels the sharp steering feels less so. Was the car you drove shod with wider tires? Maybe they were the stock size but had too little pressure?...

...Because i have an s2000 and still remember the first time i got in the car and changed lanes at speed and was AMAZED at the tight, remarkably quick steering--granted, i was coming out of a front-drive economy car. the system may not be as quick as whatever they've got in an Elise or Exige or Atom but i am suprised by your comment because for all the things i could say i wasn't crazy about, the steering wouldn't be one of them. And if it makes you feel any better, the EPS in the s2000 is far superior to what can be found in the Civics.

Anyway, if you do end up getting one and still can't stand the feeling, you could try swapping in the rack from the CR edition which is a little quicker than the base models, though i'm sure that's a several hundred dollar proposition.

And the crashing had to do with people not ready to handle the big spike in power from 6 to 8k (7 to 9 in the originals) who found themselves getting sideways and not knowing how to control a slide...and although the laws of physics apply to evrything, the s2000 is particularly fond of whatever law it is that says when the rear breaks loose at speed and you lift off the throttle the rear will continue on around to the space previously occupied by the front bumper
May 25, 2009 8:53 p.m. chaparral New Reader

Tyler H wrote:

Buy it. Rent a Charger for a weekend. Then the S2K steering will feel great.

S2K power steering feel > Miata power steering.

Manual steering on a light car is great, but it's a thing of the past. (Because light cars are gone.)

2800 isn't too heavy for manual steering in a RWD car.

Light cars are going to come back - legislated back from the dead! No way is a conventional car weighing more than about 2400 going to get the 36 MPG combined it'll have to.
May 25, 2009 10:22 p.m. nderwater New Reader

I'm a Miata and E30/E36 guy and have always been impressed with the S2000's I've driven. Maybe the one you test drove had tire or suspension issues?
May 25, 2009 10:41 p.m. carguy123 Dork

rookie_s wrote:

And the crashing had to do with people not ready to handle the big spike in power from 6 to 8k (7 to 9 in the originals) who found themselves getting sideways and not knowing how to control a slide...and although the laws of physics apply to evrything, the s2000 is particularly fond of whatever law it is that says when the rear breaks loose at speed and you lift off the throttle the rear will continue on around to the space previously occupied by the front bumper

And the VTEC kick isn't hard enough to get the rear end loose unless you are already at the edge, it's much less than the 2nd turbo hit of the RX7. And anyway what would you be doing off VTEC?

It's geared so that unless you just screw up once you are in VTEC you are in VTEC for the rest of the race unless you just hit the wrong gear.

Almost every tale about loose rear ends on the S2000 forums came from FWD boys. Mine nor any other one I've driven has had lift throttle oversteer to any degree. Not enough to be an issue that is. You want your car to tuck the nose in when you lift the throttle.

It ain't perfect, it has the most annoying issue of locking the doors on you. NEVER leave your key fob in the car, you'll need it to get back in.
May 25, 2009 11:58 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

carguy123 wrote:

Almost every tale about loose rear ends on the S2000 forums came from FWD boys. Mine nor any other one I've driven has had lift throttle oversteer to any degree. Not enough to be an issue that is. You want your car to tuck the nose in when you lift the throttle.

I won't discount that then. I know Honda changed the geometry some when they put in the 2.2L, to make it a bit less tail happy. It also seems that S2000s are the second most spin-prone cars I've seen at track days (2nd gen MR2s are the most). I've also seen them do incredible things and be fantastically poised and responsive. I do suspect it's mostly based on the driver.
May 26, 2009 7:29 a.m. GregTivo Reader

carguy123 wrote:

And the VTEC kick isn't hard enough to get the rear end loose unless you are already at the edge, it's much less than the 2nd turbo hit of the RX7. And anyway what would you be doing off VTEC?

It's geared so that unless you just screw up once you are in VTEC you are in VTEC for the rest of the race unless you just hit the wrong gear.

Almost every tale about loose rear ends on the S2000 forums came from FWD boys. Mine nor any other one I've driven has had lift throttle oversteer to any degree. Not enough to be an issue that is. You want your car to tuck the nose in when you lift the throttle.

seriously, VTEC isn't like 1980's Porsche turbo lag, max its been a change of like 10-15 ft-lbs.
May 26, 2009 7:41 a.m. shbsn New Reader

I had an '03 S2000 for a few years. First of all, congratulations on your excellent taste in choosing an AP1 (first gen)! You get the higher redling, original suspension specs, and cleaner (IMO) interior.

Many people crash these because they lift off the throttle in turns. S2000's, particularly the AP1s,don't tolerate that very well. However, if you trust the car and push through the turn w/o lifting, you'll be absolutely amazed at its handling. Even with suspension mods, my '92 Miata doesn't seem to be equal.

Another reason for spins has already been mentioned, that many drivers are switching to RWD from FWD. The S2000 probably isn't the most forgiving car to make that jump with. From what I recall while on the S2K forum, the AP2 retuned the suspension to allow more leeway for driver error, but then when the CR version of the S came out it seemed to have the AP1 spring rates.

I hope this helps you and defends the mighty S2000 somewhat. These cars don't randomly throw themselves into ditches, despite their reputation.
May 26, 2009 3:27 p.m. DWNSHFT New Reader

2.0 liter S2000s have a rear toe control issue. Check the archives, I've written about it before.

I agree, the electric power steering is the worst aspect of a fantastic track car. Very numb non-confidence-inspiring; would that be confidence-destroying?

On the Spec Miatas we could take the power steering rack, "re-build" it and leave out all the power steering seals, and get a quick ratio rack with very acceptable levels of effort. I bet there's a fix out there for the S2000.

David
May 5, 2011 8:30 p.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

canoe kanoodle
May 7, 2011 8:00 a.m. Teh E36 M3 HalfDork

Dual Canoodle!!

If only I had a tiffany ring?