Saturn D.D.?-Page 2: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

Subscribe get a full year for only $19.95 Sample get a free issue—no strings attached

1 2

Dec. 6, 2008 6:46 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

belteshazzar wrote:

ignorant wrote:

that's a good car. The twin cams did like to use oil. Engine mounts like to go. The Dex Cool loves to destroy water pumps and thermostats.

Engine coolant temp sensors like to destroy themselves.

I'd own another one. I thought it was fun to drive.

And for the record, 90% of the time the engine mount that fails is the one on top of the motor next to the pass side strut tower. They cost $35 at o'reilly's, require only a 15mm deep socket and a floor jack to replace, and take 5 minutes to do if you're a rookie.

ignorant is right, get the dexcool out. go ahead and replace the coolant temp sensor preemptively. They're very cheap, easy to swap, and having a good one contributes to better fuel economy. For some reason the pig -tail to the cts can go bad too.

I haven't owned a saturn for 2 years but I still have an extra pigtail and sensor in the tool box in the garage.

The top engine mount is easy to replace. I did it and the two bottom dog bones.

Also.. If you have an engine where the coil packs are mounted to the side of the transmission. Do yourself a favor and pull the coil pack. Once you've done that. Sand the backsife of the coil pack to remove rust, aslo sand the mounting pad. Purchase new bolts from saturn and assemble with plenty of dielectric grease. You're trying to get a good ground for the coil packs. Once done there is a noticeable difference in idle and smoothness.
Dec. 6, 2008 6:49 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

kinda forgot about that coil pack trick. Thanks for bringing it up.
Dec. 6, 2008 7:20 p.m. curtis73 Reader

belteshazzar wrote:

I'd love a point by point debate on the subject but I'm not sure it would be appreciated.

Actually it would be appreciated. Having worked for a GM/Saturn dealer service department for a conglomerate of 14 years I could even probably call up a buddy and get some of the old records of repairs.

I have a ton of experience with Saturns. I think they are cheap, and you can buy much better cars for the same money. The sister dealerships to ours sold Buick, Honda, Volvo, Saab, Nissan, Chevy, GMC, and FoMoCo, so I have pretty extensive experience with all of the above as well. I am basing my opinion on factual data of vehicles that came through our bays. Working on them sucked, the cost of parts sucked, and the car itself failed more than even our Buicks.

I'll just debate facts. I always do. I throw my opinion in the ring when the facts support a certain side of the argument. I knew I'd be butting heads on this since there seem to be a lot of Saturn-lovers here... I'm just not one of them.

And for the record, the Saturn with the broken block was owned by my wife's best friend since new, no accident damage. The block broke. Period. It was a saturn, not a honda.
Dec. 6, 2008 10:04 p.m. neon4891 Dork

Well, like I said, I'm going to test drive it on monday, start crunching the numbers and also wait for the shop to check out the shifter issues with my neon. If new booger bushing solve the problems, then I will probley pass. Wait and see.
Dec. 6, 2008 11:26 p.m. CarKid1989 Reader

Just adding some more info here...

our 1996 saturn sl2 just turned 200,000 miles. and my friends saturn is at 204,000 miles and still going
Dec. 6, 2008 11:32 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

curtis73 wrote:

belteshazzar wrote:

I'd love a point by point debate on the subject but I'm not sure it would be appreciated.

Actually it would be appreciated. Having worked for a GM/Saturn dealer service department for a conglomerate of 14 years I could even probably call up a buddy and get some of the old records of repairs.

If you worked for the Saturn service department than you did not have extensive experience with the other marks, as one Saturn "brand critical standard" was that there be no mixing of service or sales experiences. I know that's been abandoned at this point, but it should have made up the majority of the last 14 years.

curtis73 wrote: I have a ton of experience with Saturns. I think they are cheap, and you can buy much better cars for the same money. The sister dealerships to ours sold Buick, Honda, Volvo, Saab, Nissan, Chevy, GMC, and FoMoCo, so I have pretty extensive experience with all of the above as well. I am basing my opinion on factual data of vehicles that came through our bays. Working on them sucked, the cost of parts sucked, and the car itself failed more than even our Buicks.

No, you did not. You don't know how to change an alternator without removing parts that even some of our diy'ers knew to leave alone. You have had a trouble aligning them and blamed it on a "flexible unibody". That explanation fails on too many levels. The Saturn S-series was not the first compact car to receive a 5-star crash test rating because they were a limp noodle. Even if they were, it's ridiculous to believe that merely driving them for a short period of time would cause them to change dimension in some measurable way. I wouldn't make that claim about ANY brand and expect to be taken seriously.

curtis73 wrote:

And for the record, the Saturn with the broken block was owned by my wife's best friend since new, no accident damage. The block broke. Period. It was a saturn, not a honda.

If you'd had said something like, " the block was porous and leaked oil", or "it was a 97 sohc and the head cracked" you'd have a case. Those were actual quality control problems that Saturn dealt with. But you, in your fantastic amount of experience, didn't even pick well known Saturn issues. Claiming that a block broke in half, and that it somehow reflects on the LLO or L24 family of engines in some sort of sweeping general sort of way, is just crazy.

Rebuttle?
Dec. 7, 2008 8:17 a.m. minimac Dork

My '91SL-1 was running strong at 230k when I got hit by a drunk head on. It was a cheap car to own, a cheap car to maintain and a cheap car to operate. It did everything I wanted it to-mainly move my butt from place to place- cheaply, efficiently, and reliably. No, it didn't handle like my Porsche and it wasn't as comfortable as my old BMW, but it moved me from A to B, and did it at 35-38mpg.
Dec. 7, 2008 2:56 p.m. curtis73 Reader

belteshazzar wrote: If you worked for the Saturn service department than you did not have extensive experience with the other marks, as one Saturn "brand critical standard" was that there be no mixing of service or sales experiences. I know that's been abandoned at this point, but it should have made up the majority of the last 14 years.
All I know is when you show up for work and the boss says, "you're over at star today," that meant I was working on mostly Fords. Or if he said, "you're over at Saturn today," I knew I was working on mostly saturns. Regardless of the "brand critical standard," that you speak so highly of, we swapped jobs like trinkets at the flea market.

In the earlier Saturn years, that "brand critical standard" you speak of didn't exist. They were hurting. Once they started getting snooty about it and saying you can only work on Saturns, nobody listened. When you have a dealership getting screwed by the company and someone brings a Dodge in for service, you don't turn them away, you say thanks for your patronage, sir.

No, you did not. You don't know how to change an alternator without removing parts that even some of our diy'ers knew to leave alone. You have had a trouble aligning them and blamed it on a "flexible unibody". That explanation fails on too many levels. The Saturn S-series was not the first compact car to receive a 5-star crash test rating because they were a limp noodle. Even if they were, it's ridiculous to believe that merely driving them for a short period of time would cause them to change dimension in some measurable way. I wouldn't make that claim about ANY brand and expect to be taken seriously.
crash test ratings have little to do with harmonic stiffness. In fact it is the compressability and energy absorption of a unibody that has a large amount to do with its crash test rating. Sorry, but the facts disagree. Over they years they have gotten a bit better, but some of the first saturns were the worst, with Hz ratings that were just a hair better than the K-car.

If you'd had said something like, " the block was porous and leaked oil", or "it was a 97 sohc and the head cracked" you'd have a case. Those were actual quality control problems that Saturn dealt with. But you, in your fantastic amount of experience, didn't even pick well known Saturn issues. Claiming that a block broke in half, and that it somehow reflects on the LLO or L24 family of engines in some sort of sweeping general sort of way, is just crazy.

Why does it have to be a known Saturn issue? I didn't say, "don't buy a saturn because the blocks break," I merely relayed a factual event that took place. I didn't say anything about ALL saturns, I merely relayed a few situations that supported my argument.

I'm not here to raise feathers, I'm just providing counterpoint. The OP asked for opinions about buying a saturn as a DD. I think there are much better options. You clearly passionately love saturns. Lets just leave it at that... counterpoint. You recommend that he do it, I'll recommend that he doesn't.

Why is it so hard to believe that I worked for a service department and I experienced things that were not on a TSB? Other things happen.
Dec. 7, 2008 7:11 p.m. neon4891 Dork

new development, i found an unkown year mazda 626 1200 obo more lookings for tomarrow
Dec. 8, 2008 10:14 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

curtis73 wrote: I'm not here to raise feathers, I'm just providing counterpoint. The OP asked for opinions about buying a saturn as a DD. I think there are much better options.

Fear not, feathers are not ruffled. I don't take Saturns personally. Bash them all you want, but when you bring up situations that are at best irrelevant I'm going to give you a hard time.

curtis73 wrote:

some of the first saturns were the worst, with Hz ratings that were just a hair better than the K-car.

source?

curtis73 wrote:

Why does it have to be a known Saturn issue? I didn't say, "don't buy a saturn because the blocks break," I merely relayed a factual event that took place. I didn't say anything about ALL saturns, I merely relayed a few situations that supported my argument.

If your argument is that there's something wrong with s-series cars, then no, you didnt'. You brought up problems nobody else has experienced, and then undermined your own opinion by not even knowing how to replace an alternator.

When someone was asking about old Celicas a few threads ago, I could have brought up one that came through with a 3" hole in the block just to the right of the oil filter. Ran good but spewed oil out. It's interesting, but it has nothing to do with whether or not someone ought to consider one for their next car.

curtis73 wrote: Why is it so hard to believe that I worked for a service department and I experienced things that were not on a TSB? Other things happen.

Ad nauseum. But it's way more educational for the O/P to talk about stuff that has happened more than once. There's plenty of known weaknesses with any car including Saturns. That particular model and year he brought up should be a fine car.
Dec. 8, 2008 10:18 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

neon4891 wrote:

new development, i found an unkown year mazda 626 1200 obo more lookings for tomarrow

It'll ride better than the Saturn. But there's a lot of missing information before anyone should be able to say it is or isn't worth it.
Dec. 8, 2008 11:16 a.m. neon4891 Dork

yeah, the sign on the 626 was

*for sale

$1200 obo

phone number*

what I do know is 5 spd/moonroof/ 4th gen(93-98?)
Dec. 8, 2008 11:31 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

At least it's not the automatic. That style of 626 drive really well. Those motors idle funny sometimes and I've never figured out why. 120hp in a 626 will feel like less than 100 did in the SL-1, but don't take my word for it. Drive one. Check out mpg. I know $1600 will buy a lot of gas but....
Dec. 8, 2008 2:46 p.m. neon4891 Dork

A good long look at the 626 in the day time revealed 125K, CC, PL, PW, a rough interior, no radio, mostly clean body(odd looking something on the rear driver side door that looks like painted over bondo maybe) and 4 wheel disks with alloys.

Also drove the Saturn. It has 127k, the only option is a cd player, and clean thrueout. The biggest issue would be getting used to the peddle feel, as compared to the neon. And the Dealer said he could drop it to around 2250. I have made up my mind for the most part and will try to get to the bank on wensday.
Dec. 8, 2008 3:51 p.m. Tyler H Dork

Beware of anything Ford or Mazda with a CD4E auto transmission. It was used in Fords and Mazdas, and neither company will admit being responsible for designing that POS tranny.
Dec. 8, 2008 4:22 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

belteshazzar wrote:

At least it's not the automatic.
Dec. 8, 2008 4:38 p.m. neon4891 Dork

and apperantly that gen 626 shared the platform with the probe... according to the all knowing wiki
Dec. 8, 2008 4:53 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

tis true.
Dec. 8, 2008 4:55 p.m. neon4891 Dork

Moot point now, I've made up my mind on the Saturn... It has a CD player, RHPS time
Dec. 8, 2008 5:04 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

that's a sweet price. almost suspiciously good. Hope it works out for ya.
Dec. 8, 2008 5:15 p.m. neon4891 Dork

and it wasn't under powered. i mean, it wont keep up with the neon, but I will get out of it's own shadow. Just easier for me to stay out of trouble.
Dec. 8, 2008 5:22 p.m. belteshazzar Dork

It helps you're driving a light weight example. For another, the sohc doesn't give away much to the dohc below 4000rpm, and definitely not below 3000.
Dec. 10, 2008 1:45 p.m. neon4891 Dork

Now I just wait for an answer from the bank