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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » SCCA Autocross Questions.

Dec. 4, 2008 9:40 a.m. jwdmotorsports Reader

I autocrossed a little bit in college (probably about 5-6 years ago now). I'm looking to get back into autocross next year.

In college the club I ran with just did open class (anything goes) so I never worried about what class my car was in.

So, the question is, is it better to run at the max of stock class or at the min of STS? Looking at the rules it looks like my budget would either put me at the max of allowd modifications for stock class or stock class plus a couple modifications in STS (mainly wider rims and tires).

Also, I'm leaning heavily toward buying an 88-91 Civic hatchback. What are the pros and cons of DX vs. Si?
Dec. 4, 2008 9:58 a.m. Gimp Dork

Is the budget related to the Civic, or another car?

If you were buying an 88-91 car, spend the money for the Si. The suspension on the DX can be fixed in STS, but not the motor.
Dec. 4, 2008 10:05 a.m. jwdmotorsports Reader

Changed the wording on the budget thing. I think my wording was confusing. The budget isn't really related to the Civic just the money I can spend on whatever car I buy.
Dec. 4, 2008 10:34 a.m. carguy123 HalfDork

I'd say run anything but SCCA. One, SCCA is too class and rule limited. Two, it's usually too crowded so you don't get enough seat time to justify all the working and sitting around time.

I'd say first go to some local car club autocrosses. They usually are run more loosely, you get more runs, you get more help and you aren't so worried about class. Get some seat time under your belt and if you turn into this maniacal competitor then add SCCA to your list.
Dec. 4, 2008 10:55 a.m. Salanis SuperDork

You're not going to be competitive in SCCA when you enter. So why bother trying to fix your car to be competitive? Just make the modifications you'd like, figure out what class you're supposedly in, and have fun.

I strongly second the local club autocrosses over SCCA. Fewer people. More seat time. More relaxed atmosphere.
Dec. 4, 2008 11:42 a.m. pinchvalve SuperDork

The Civic is great for autocrossing. I ran a DX that was upgraded to Si Spec (actually EX in my case since it was a sedan). You can usually get a DX way less than an Si and put the money you save into the suspension. Even with an Si, you will want to new shocks, coils, bushings and sway bars anyway. Eventually, you can do a mini-me swap and get yourself up to Si spec and still be in STS.

However, the cheapest route is always to buy someone elses car that already has been upgraded. You never recoup what you put into an old Civic. Bad for the seller, good for the buyer!
Dec. 4, 2008 11:57 a.m. Type Q HalfDork

Salanis wrote:

You're not going to be competitive in SCCA when you enter. So why bother trying to fix your car to be competitive? Just make the modifications you'd like, figure out what class you're supposedly in, and have fun.

I strongly second the local club autocrosses over SCCA. Fewer people. More seat time. More relaxed atmosphere.

SCCA regions vary quite a bit in term of the overal atmosphere. My first two autocrosses were SCCA events in Norman Oklahoma. That was a pretty laid back group. In Northern California where I live not there are litterally 5 to 6 different clubs that run events regularly from January through November. SCCA is the most formal of all the groups. It is also the most competitive. Find a couple a of different groups to run with and have fun.

When you are starting out, improving your driving skills it going make you faster sooner than anything you can do to the car. It's important to have a car thats reliable and predicatable while you are learning. Beyond doing needed maintenance and repairs, I suggest budgeting for a drivng school. I started with a Civic Si, ran it in H stock for a few years until my driving was reasonably good and then took the plunge into STS. The biggest bang for the in terms of speed improvement was the $80 I spent on the local SCCA autocross school.
Dec. 4, 2008 12:11 p.m. d_jabsd Reader

carguy123 wrote:

I'd say run anything but SCCA. One, SCCA is too class and rule limited. Two, it's usually too crowded so you don't get enough seat time to justify all the working and sitting around time.

This is going to be very region dependent. Chicago Region is great. 6 runs per event, sometimes 7 or 8. Occasional fun runs after the event.
Dec. 4, 2008 12:24 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

For many folks, SCCA autocrosses are the only answer. I've had good luck with most regions. Just go have fun whereever you can.
Dec. 4, 2008 12:44 p.m. Bobzilla New Reader

Every region is diiferent, but in my experience with the 4 Indiana regions I've competed in (SBR, FWR, Indy, Columbus) they are all extremely helpful, fun and very open.

As for the question on which class to run. . . where do you plan on going with this car? Do you plan on going full bore STS down the road? If so, then I would start in STS, gives you a chance to learn from the people you're going to compete with. After driving a 2800+lb tank in STS for 2 years locally, I am glad I did. I've learned a lot from those I race with.
Dec. 4, 2008 12:50 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

would you rather have a high yearly tire budget?

or a tire budget of half that and upgrade more hard parts as you go?

i went with STX in my mustang for a good time and did some hard parts, but got lured into more competitive ESP and hunt for cheap used rcomps now.
Dec. 4, 2008 1:09 p.m. David S. Wallens Editorial Director

I'd also look at your local region. If the Stock class is dead but there's a ton of people in Street Touring, for example, then I'd go to ST. If no one runs ST, then look around at Stock or Street Prepared.
Dec. 4, 2008 6:23 p.m. aka_old_saw

jwdmotorsports wrote:

Also, I'm leaning heavily toward buying an 88-91 Civic hatchback. What are the pros and cons of DX vs. Si?

Si's are the current "car to have" in STS.

Pros are light weight, good suspension design with a lot of aftermarket support and helpful competitors who have done a lot of development.

Cons are that good ones are hard to find (moreso if you want the more desireable 88 model year) and they are often over-priced. If you can find one that's already been set-up for STS (and it's within the budget), you'll have a great head start.

Dx's are essentially the same car, minus the multi-port injection, a hundred cc's and about 18hp. A Dx should tip the scales at a lower weight because they didn't sport a factory sunroof. Don't get a four-speed car. The five speed has different ratios than the Si and they are not in your favor - go to shorter tires to help compensate.

A Dx will not be competitive is STS (I ran mine at Nationals when STS was a provisional class - I know), but it would be fun.

Once you advance your skills, look at the update/backdate ruleset for Street Prepared tricks and move classes. Or, transplant a B-series motor/transaxle and run in Street Mod. Both these classes at least require a lsd to be remotely competitive.

Most of all, just have fun and concentrate on your driving.
Dec. 4, 2008 7:53 p.m. jwdmotorsports Reader

If anyone on here knows of local clubs in Alabama let me know. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.

I think the only thing around here is SCCA.

The upside I have noticed about the DX vs. the Si is that the Si is a lot cheaper.

Thanks for all the good advice. I hadn't thought about checking to see what the locals are running to help decide.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:17 p.m. amaff HalfDork

I just checked your profile and you're really near the site that the AL region uses. They're a great bunch of guys, really laid back and have a pretty nice site. The smallest number of runs I've gotten there is 6, but I've had as many as 8 or 9. I will say that they more than likely have the most competitive bunch of CSP folks in the SE (not like competitive nationally, but a bunch of well driven, very similarly prepared cars), and in they're group they're really competitive. It's always fun to watch the CSP run group in action ;).

If it tells you anything, a good number of us pretty regularly drive the 2.5 hours from Atlanta to go to AL Region events when we have off weeks.
Dec. 4, 2008 8:25 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

Alabama clubs: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/clubs/by-state/AL/

If anyone knows of more, get 'em added, or send 'em to me!
Dec. 5, 2008 11:51 a.m. jwdmotorsports Reader

STS questions.

Would I be allowd to use suspension parts from a newer car if they use the same mount locations or does that put you in a higher class?

Am I correct that I have to maintain full interior?
Dec. 5, 2008 12:37 p.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

jwdmotorsports wrote:

STS questions.

Would I be allowd to use suspension parts from a newer car if they use the same mount locations or does that put you in a higher class?

Am I correct that I have to maintain full interior?

Depends on what suspension part. If it's a part that is legal to change, then changing it for a different OE part is fine.

Yes - full interior.
Dec. 5, 2008 12:49 p.m. jwdmotorsports Reader

Where would I find that information? I looked through the rule book but didn't see it.

Here's the reason for the question. The thought crossed my mind that I could use the old civic I have in my garage but it's hard to find suspension parts for it and it's a harder to find bolt pattern. I would want to upgrade to run newer shocks, etc and 4x100 rims.
Dec. 5, 2008 2:45 p.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

jwdmotorsports wrote:

Where would I find that information? I looked through the rule book but didn't see it.

Here's the reason for the question. The thought crossed my mind that I could use the old civic I have in my garage but it's hard to find suspension parts for it and it's a harder to find bolt pattern. I would want to upgrade to run newer shocks, etc and 4x100 rims.

Springs and shocks can be replaced, so those could be replaced with later model. There is a camber kit allowance that is open enough that it allows a replacement control arm, so that could be from a later model. There is no allowance for replacement hubs.

It's all in the rule book.
Dec. 5, 2008 3:16 p.m. Tom Heath Production Editor

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Springs and shocks can be replaced, so those could be replaced with later model. There is a camber kit allowance that is open enough that it allows a replacement control arm, so that could be from a later model. There is no allowance for replacement hubs.

It's all in the rule book.

The pdf version on the website is sweet, because you can search for the information you need. (Click me...)
Dec. 5, 2008 4:29 p.m. poopshovel Dork

Is the 77 civic in your sig running? Why not run that? Personally, I like running in the crazier classes. EP and XP are fun, even if you're not competitve. Chop the springs, gut the berkeley out of (whatever) car, throw some truck shocks and big stickies on and have fun. Stock was boring and/or frustrating for me.
Dec. 5, 2008 4:34 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/RedShift%20Tech%20Page.htm

lookie here, a recipe for a civic si..

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