SCCA Rallycross Great Lakes Challenge

In reply to Jerry :

Yup.

Looks like the guy that dominates MA in the region i will be running, dominated MA at the challenge.

MrChaos said:

this has my attention 

It's a 3.0 manual trans unicorn.  They first showed up to run in SA (maybe PA) and they had some interior missing, and I pointed out that was insta-Mod.  So they said, well, okay, let's just go all the way and run in Mod.

What is neat is, they make that car hustle.  They do not drive it like the Internet says that all wheel drive system should handle.

I will say i did like the diversity from the FB pics I saw. That jag, a crz, the audi suv thing, the tacoma, your fb rx7, the 914 safari, z32, foxbody.

I do have some questions. A 19 Malibu got 2nd in SA?????????? a 2008 Mike Wilson Honda Cart got 1st in SR??????????? I'm really confused about those 2.

In reply to Knurled. :

It really is surprisingly fun to drive. The only complaint i had when i drove it was the abs but they have that disabled now.

MrChaos said:

I will say i did like the diversity from the FB pics I saw. That jag, a crz, the audi suv thing, the tacoma, your fb rx7, the 914 safari, z32, foxbody.

I do have some questions. A 19 Malibu got 2nd in SA?????????? a 2008 Mike Wilson Honda Cart got 1st in SR??????????? I'm really confused about those 2.

Malibu was actually an Audi suv, he switched at registration. The cart was a mixup when registering, he was in a boxster.

In reply to EvanB :

yea I was really confused there looking at the results on FB.

This makes me want to get a rallycross car.... I would like to try a 350z or a g35 but the main issue I see is tire choice for MR since you cant fit anything smaller than 17"s or 18"s on a z depending on the year. Same issue with s197 stangs

MrChaos said:

In reply to EvanB :

yea I was really confused there looking at the results on FB.

 

This makes me want to get a rallycross car.... I would like to try a 350z or a g35 but the main issue I see is tire choice for MR since you cant fit anything smaller than 17"s or 18"s on a z depending on the year. Same issue with s197 stangs

In Prepared (and therefore Mod) you're allowed to throw away those huge brakes and go with something that fits under 15".

In reply to Knurled. :

the issue is finding smaller brakes that will fit.  the closest are z32 or r33 brakes but the calipers are 12mm bolts not 14mm like the 350z.

MrChaos said:

In reply to Knurled. :

the issue is finding smaller brakes that will fit.

look at older (pre-2000) Maxima brakes. IIRC some guys used to basically bolt up G35 brakes for upgrades, so I would imagine it would work the other way. Don't quote me on it though, just a vague recollection from my Maxima days. 

G or Z won't be very competitive in MR anyhow, so downgrading all that just to run rally tires may not be worth the effort  Probably best bet would be to get some performance winters (i.e. LM-25's or Winterport 4D or soemthing like that) since they come in the 17" size, and just go that way. The reality is that at many venues, snow tires are just as fast as rally tires (in general, not counting all the fancy surface-specific tires from Latvia and Belgium and stuff that the likes of Vaughn and some other people haul around, haha). 

Or, do all that brake stuff because you like doing stuff to cars and stock is boring. That also works :)

MrChaos said:

In reply to Knurled. :

the issue is finding smaller brakes that will fit.  the closest are z32 or r33 brakes but the calipers are 12mm bolts not 14mm like the 350z.

That's not a problem.... if the knuckles are the same as far as caliper ear to hub centerlines is concerned, you either need to drill something or you need to slap a reducer bushing in there.  Done

or buy something cheap and play in MF but that would be boring

350z/g35's can fit 16s on early non big brake cars. and i can get Maxsport RB3's in 205/55/16. so that is an option

MrChaos said:

350z/g35's can fit 16s on early non big brake cars. and i can get Maxsport RB3's in 205/55/16. so that is an option

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  (See also: rallycrossing a Volvo S60R luxobarge.  On, I should point out, 235/40R18 UHP summer-only tires)

Snow tires make up for their compound and tread shape inadequacies with soft sidewalls to absorb surface irregularities.  Rally tires, especially low profile rally tires like a 60cm 16" tire, cannot do that unless you basically run them flat, at which point they suck all the power, and also debead easily.

Knurled. said:

MrChaos said:

350z/g35's can fit 16s on early non big brake cars. and i can get Maxsport RB3's in 205/55/16. so that is an option

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  (See also: rallycrossing a Volvo S60R luxobarge.  On, I should point out, 235/40R18 UHP summer-only tires)

 

Snow tires make up for their compound and tread shape inadequacies with soft sidewalls to absorb surface irregularities.  Rally tires, especially low profile rally tires like a 60cm 16" tire, cannot do that unless you basically run them flat, at which point they suck all the power, and also debead easily.

Yeah, but RB3's are not "rally tires"...........regardless of what Maxsport and demontweeks say. They are essentially street-tire husks with a gravel tire retread cap, hence why they debead at low pressures. They are supposedly "reinforced sidewalls" but not sure I believe that considering how mushy the sidewalls are. Certainly nowhere close to a competition rally tire's sidewall stiffness. The Maxsports are great for rallycross but almost nobody would actually try to run stages on them. 

I've run actual "rally tires" (DMacks, Yokos, etc) at pressures as low as 15psi on occasion (usually low 20s though) and never once debeaded in ~75 rallycrosses and ~10 stage rallies. As to sucking power..I don't notice any appreciable "power suck" at any different pressure, just traction. And on a G35/Z there is an excess of usable power anyhow, so losing some for traction wouldn't be a bad thing. 

Of course with SCCA debead rules you usually get a re-run anyhow, don't you? So who cares if you debead - just means you get an extra run to learn the course!

In reply to irish44j :

Wow... that's wild.. A debead "mechanical" on your car gives you a rerun... 

Huh... 

In reply to irish44j :

All rally tires debead, sometimes even at 35psi.  Not calling out Maxsports in particular.

Knurled. said:

In reply to irish44j :

All rally tires debead, sometimes even at 35psi.  Not calling out Maxsports in particular.

well, none of the 20-30 rally tires I've ever owned/run on my car have ever debeaded. 

Spacecadet: Yeah, it's a stupid rule. It gives license to people to drive badly by giving re-runs for it. In my opinion, if you debead a rally tire in rallycross, it's almost always the driver's fault. They shoudl just allow you to finish the run and take whatever crappy time you've earned, not reward lousy driving form by giving you a free recce run....... 

irish44j said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to irish44j :

All rally tires debead, sometimes even at 35psi.  Not calling out Maxsports in particular.

well, none of the 20-30 rally tires I've ever owned/run on my car have ever debeaded. 

Spacecadet: Yeah, it's a stupid rule. It gives license to people to drive badly by giving re-runs for it. In my opinion, if you debead a rally tire in rallycross, it's almost always the driver's fault. They shoudl just allow you to finish the run and take whatever crappy time you've earned, not reward lousy driving form by giving you a free recce run....... 

It's been beaten to death over and over again, but when your site is basically dis-used farmland it's going to degrade and rut a little differently than a harder-packed surface.  I've seen courses where we'll suddenly get a rash of debeads - even from good drivers with properly inflated rally tires who never debead - and it's just a course-related issue.  That said, I'm in the camp of not red-flagging for a debead and letting the driver complete the run and take the time, but since we can't ever be against safety, the compromise position as I understand it is to stop the car and give them 5 minutes or whatever to re-seat the tire and start a re-run the first time.  Yeah, a good driver should be able to read the course and avoid the rutted areas and that sounds really great and manly and all that, but some of the surfaces out there can get really wonky really fast and I think that's what they're trying to accomodate.

Back on topic:  Y'all put on a great event.  I'm a bit dissapointed that we didn't wait out the lightning on Saturday or even on Sunday morning, but the course was awesome, the hangouts in the multi-purpose building had brisket, beer, and hungry hungry huskies, and despite some epochly long driver changes in the two-driver cars, everything seemed to move pretty smoothly.  10/10, would race again.

Also:  I think I have your rain suit, Pete.  Yellow, looks unopened, in a Flying J shopping bag.  It was in the swivel chair on the motorhome when I was packing up.  I'll bring it to the July 20 event.

I went into the event expecting the same experience as nationals last year. Heat changeovers were long but that's unavoidable to an extent when you only have three heats. The only real complaint I had was not having afternoon heat grid orders prepared ahead of time. Other than that, everything ran about as well as nationals did and we got more than three runs in each heat and nearly got done before the rain hit so my expectations were pretty well exceeded. And the event ran much smoother than the typical local events, so good job to al involved.

In reply to dps214 :

They did get the schedule backwards IMO.  Run - work - off, not work - run - off.  That way the workers can filter in as they finish their runs, and workers can stay out until the last car is off course without having any obligations after their shift is over, and drivers have their whole off heat to get their cars ready to go.

wae: 

​​​​​​drivers with properly inflated rally tires

What 35psi in rally tires may look like.

(And this was in TULSA, which is one of the best sites I've ever run)

Knurled. said:

wae: 

​​​​​​drivers with properly inflated rally tires

What 35psi in rally tires may look like.

(And this was in TULSA, which is one of the best sites I've ever run)

The only thing I see there is bad driving. 

In reply to irish44j :

Same driver would run 18psi in his stock class STi no issues.

Tire pressure, not boost 

Car type absolutely does have to do with it.  Lightweight top heavy FWDs park the car on the outside front on every corner and are prone to debeads.  Relatively low "crab walking" RWDs are extremely difficult to debead.  Still possible though - I did it last year after hitting a bump with the rear made me insta-understeer right into a bump or rut or something.  Pfff.

hmm clean title manual frs/brz's are getting to sub $10k range from dealers