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spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
8/14/20 11:38 a.m.

I assume this is probably going to make it to a future issue of GRM. 

But, I saw this car this morning shared by Rupert Berrington and I thought we should all see it here.

Original book of faces post was by Peter Dozeman

with this caption

Strip Weathers comes out of retirement with new and improved Aero.
Special thanks to;
Dinoco
Pure Plastics LLC
My wife, Lynn Marie Dozeman
Rossini Racing Engines
Brakes, Wilwood Engineering
Bilstein Shock Absorbers built by Robby Briley
Articulate Motion
Wings, University of Texas Arlington FSAE Team
Miata Mecca, Mike's Place
Pro Dyno Chandler AZ
Northern radiator
Team dynamic wheels
Keisler Automation
Rosemberg Herrera
Marino Angulo


spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
8/14/20 11:41 a.m.

another photo from the original post, power appears to be a naturally aspirated 1.8 non VVT motor with some bolt ons.. i wonder whats going on INSIDE this motor as well.

 

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
8/14/20 11:43 a.m.

Interesting. Very interesting. Could be a pretty stock-ish engine. I know Moti at Blackbird Fabworx was smashing records in Morpheus with only a 130whp BP-4W

FooBag (Forum Supporter)
FooBag (Forum Supporter) Reader
8/14/20 12:01 p.m.

In the comments of his post, Peter revealed it dyno'ed 158 to the wheels and stated "all motor".  Having seen the previous rendition in person, they are running some very high octane fuel.

I'm honestly surprised it took this long for "serious" wings to show up in the Modified classes.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
8/14/20 12:19 p.m.

Yep, photo shoot handled this morning. smiley

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 12:25 p.m.
FooBag (Forum Supporter) said:

In the comments of his post, Peter revealed it dyno'ed 158 to the wheels and stated "all motor".  Having seen the previous rendition in person, they are running some very high octane fuel.

I'm honestly surprised it took this long for "serious" wings to show up in the Modified classes.

Vehicle speeds are a lot lower than even autocross.  People from some regions freak out when a course gets over 30mph.

I have seen huge wings on Hondas before.  On the front.  Appeared to do nothing useful.  And that was a wing ABOVE the car, not a wing up front where it will keep you from getting very close to cones.  Given that a rear driver at max grip is going to be at a significant slip angle, that thing out there will require the car take a much wider line than otherwise necessary.  Or be driven more conservatively.  (Says the person who eschews mudflaps because they catch cones)

158 at the wheels is really low compared to some others.

 

I did back of the envelope math and figured on needing wings at least three times as large to be worthwhile, and then the issue becomes a suspension that is okay at low speeds but stays off the bump stops at higher speeds, so I said, effort much better spent elsewhere.

 

i see the wings as like my handbrake or Leon's studs.  It is a distraction.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
8/14/20 12:49 p.m.

I'm more curious about the rear end setup then anything else, gearing and the limited slip will make more of a difference at rallycross speeds with regards to utilizing the power and putting it where it needs to be. I suspect that it hasn't been overlooked. 

There's a pair of fairly pedestrian BG chassis cars there, though Matt is a hot shoe, seeing the raw times  of this versus he in his Escort will be interesting. If searching for grip and traction in the Miata is that much of a struggle, BPs work in 323s which can easily get under 2200lb as well, just saying. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/14/20 1:05 p.m.

The difference is that a 323 has much more of the weight on the front wheels.

I missed this was a rallyx car at first, that's nuts. I am concerned about what slip angle does to the wing, it may not be as effective as hoped. But I also am in for enormous aero rooster tails.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 1:24 p.m.

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Coming out of a solid axle RX-7, and hopping into a turbo NA, the Miata rear suspension cannot put power down that well.  I struggled until Evan told me that it doesn't bite in corners, you just have to get really drifty.  Then I started to catch up to him time-wise.

 

 

 

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo Mod Squad
8/14/20 1:30 p.m.

someone needs to send them a bunch of rolls of orange yarn and masking tape

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
8/14/20 2:02 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Exactly and when you lighten them up, all of that weight is from behind the front wheels, meaning all the LFB and scandy flick fun. 

ojannen
ojannen Reader
8/14/20 2:12 p.m.

I am looking forward to the vortex through dust cloud photos.

Even if the effect is minimal, these wings should make a difference on corner entry on the highest speed corners.  An extra mile per hour at the start of a corner or a few extra feet at high speed should add up to at least a few tenths over 10 runs. I wonder if they were able to mount the front wing taller than a standard cone so they don't make the course longer.

Hopefully, Leon brings his duallies and we can have a battle of dangerous home made technology in MR.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 2:23 p.m.

In reply to ojannen :

If you're not sideways on entry to a high speed corner, you're not turned in, and you will lose speed overall when trying to rotate far too late. I'd rather not risk the 2 second penalty.

Plus, and this is where that back of the envelope math happens, if you are pulling enough downforce to be worth while (say at least 400-600lb @ 30mph), you're going to need a lot more power to punch the air, so your corner entry is going to be slower.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
8/14/20 2:32 p.m.

A wing like that will be the answer for some vehicles though to make them wider than they are tall, in order to make them legal to run. I'm the miata's case, I think mounting it high, like the GRM Fox project car would've made sense. Funneling dusty airflow, along with clums of sod and grass upon the windshield is not ideal, nor would breaking a front wing and potentially having a radiator taken out by it. 

I appreciate the execution of the concept, and I think that it's awesome that it's been made, I just find the concept very flawed. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) UberDork
8/14/20 2:34 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Yeah, I also was wondering about the power needed to compensate for the additional drag.

EvanB (Forum Supporter)
EvanB (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/14/20 2:36 p.m.

The radiator is in the back so no worries about a broken front wing taking that out. 

I'm interested to see how it does. Although the rest of the field is mostly people who haven't been to National's before except Doug so it's hard to say what the competition will be like. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 2:44 p.m.

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Wide/tall is not a factor in the S/P/M classes, and where it is a factor, it is tire width that matters, not vehicle width.

dps214
dps214 HalfDork
8/14/20 3:12 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
FooBag (Forum Supporter) said:

In the comments of his post, Peter revealed it dyno'ed 158 to the wheels and stated "all motor".  Having seen the previous rendition in person, they are running some very high octane fuel.

I'm honestly surprised it took this long for "serious" wings to show up in the Modified classes.

Vehicle speeds are a lot lower than even autocross.  People from some regions freak out when a course gets over 30mph.

I have seen huge wings on Hondas before.  On the front.  Appeared to do nothing useful.  And that was a wing ABOVE the car, not a wing up front where it will keep you from getting very close to cones.  Given that a rear driver at max grip is going to be at a significant slip angle, that thing out there will require the car take a much wider line than otherwise necessary.  Or be driven more conservatively.  (Says the person who eschews mudflaps because they catch cones)

158 at the wheels is really low compared to some others.

 

I did back of the envelope math and figured on needing wings at least three times as large to be worthwhile, and then the issue becomes a suspension that is okay at low speeds but stays off the bump stops at higher speeds, so I said, effort much better spent elsewhere.

 

i see the wings as like my handbrake or Leon's studs.  It is a distraction.

That car has never been as fast as it seems like it should be. I'm not convinced the wings will do anything meaningful but if it is fast it could be the beginning of the end of rallycross being a reasonable sport. Though it's so far been a pretty lemming effect resistant bunch. The few people playing games with crazy tires seem to have mostly driven people away from higher prep classes more so than dragging them into playing the same games. It's unfortunate there's not much in the way of real class competition to compare it to.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 3:37 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

I always heard it called the dog turd effect.  Stick a dog turd on the hood and win, next race everyone else will have a dog turd smiley

 

I see that car as another example of well meaning modifications that make a car slower.  On the other hand, every driver is different, and every site is different, and every course is different, so my opinions are of course colored by my own experiences in doing the wrong things wink

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo Mod Squad
8/14/20 4:12 p.m.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Yeah, I also was wondering about the power needed to compensate for the additional drag.

so... assumptions:
  "standard day conditions"
width = 70"
wing chord = 12"
front and rear wing are the same
Rn ~= 100,000
V = 60mph

I used a '4 digit series' N.A.C.A. airfoil... which Javafoil allows you to enter in max cambers above '9'... I had camber at 10%, at 35% chord location, and 14% maximum thickness at 30%.  I made the 2nd and 3rd element 50% versions of the same airfoil; and had them angled at 40deg and 80deg respectively....  (all of this is a huge massive guess... but should give an idea of the ballpark)

Cl = 4.3, Cd = 1.03

Thus, downforce for the two wings is ~460#s, and drag is ~100#s at 60mph.  That drag will suck up ~22hp.

If it's an SAE wing... I assume it's more efficient than that.  I bet it costs 10-15hp.

dps214
dps214 HalfDork
8/14/20 4:18 p.m.

I can't imagine the E36 M3storm that would ensue if they hit 60mph on a rallycross nationals course.

FooBag (Forum Supporter)
FooBag (Forum Supporter) Reader
8/14/20 4:46 p.m.
sleepyhead the buffalo said:

Thus, downforce for the two wings is ~460#s, and drag is ~100#s at 60mph.  That drag will suck up ~22hp.

If it's an SAE wing... I assume it's more efficient than that.  I bet it costs 10-15hp.

Peter commented on FB that the wings were designed for 500# at 45 mph, if that allows you to dial in a different model.

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy SuperDork
8/14/20 5:15 p.m.

Certainly looks cool. But I'm also skeptical that it will make the car faster.  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/14/20 6:07 p.m.
dps214 said:

I can't imagine the E36 M3storm that would ensue if they hit 60mph on a rallycross nationals course.

Chang was screaming bloody murder about a course where we were going no faster than 40-45, that was "way faster than the rules allowed".  He was looking at his speedometer and not taking into account tire spin, which is something any car will have, but especially an ITR on snow tires.

 

I've seen 50 on course (verified by radar), that was nuts.  It was at the bottom of the hill at Opie's, where there is literally no safe way to have anything but a straight shot down a fairly long steep hill.  And I was sacrificing corner entry so that I could go for a high score on the radar gun smiley  That's probably why most of the time we did right-start, so you were coming UP that hill so it was a test of horsepower rather than intestinal fortitude.  As long as your connecting rods stayed in the engine, anyway.

thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter)
thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
8/14/20 6:10 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That's a noble cause if I've ever heard one. Did you get it?

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