Selling the 911SC - What next??

In reply to ptmeyer84:

I've driven my buddies C5 and I wouldn't really call the experience special. Highly capable and willing to go to the limit of your nerves and beyond. But not really special. Honestly, I got more excited to drive my E21 BMWs, of my second Gen T/As than the Vette even though that Vette is without a doubt the highest performing car I've driven.

I had an e21 BMW as well, from my pov the Vette is more exciting, much more. Perhaps the op should drive and decide for himself what feels special.

I have to agree. C5s are excellent cars, but they are also pretty sterile. Not as bad as 90's and newer Japanese cars, but they're still not very fun cars to drive. Any fun you get is from the g-force ball rotating around you, not the actual act of driving.

Oddly enough, the higher a car's performance, the more sterile it has to be. Once you get up into ridiculous-absurd performance territory, you can't have any endearing quirks to distract you from the business of not dying. Low performance cars are allowed to be fun.

Harvey wrote: I had an e21 BMW as well, from my pov the Vette is more exciting, much more. Perhaps the op should drive and decide for himself what feels special.

I think they are special to me because they were my first taste of a non GM made car. The way they responded and moved around under me was intoxicating. Even with only 100 hp the driving experience, to me, was more engaging at speeds that wouldn't put me in jail. I had not had a car respond with that much directness prior.

The OP is talking track cars and my experience is only on public roads. I have no doubt on a track that the E21 would be very much not fun while the Vette would come alive.

I will say that the Vette is much more interesting when you can turn off the nannies and drive fast around some sort of course.

You can't do much with it on regular roads that that taxes it to the point where it gets interesting without getting arrested. That said, pressing the go pedal and feeling your face melt off for short periods of time amuses.

Maybe I should be real about how much track time I really am going to see. I have two tracks close by here in Nebraska (MPH and RPM) but both are about a 2 hour drive. I have a family (3 little girls) and work every other weekend. At best, I imagine 2-3 events a year. So at this point in my life, capability on the track should have less emphasis. More emphasis on lower speed fun but still entertaining and educational on the track.

I have to say the E36 M3 is probably the front runner. But... this 944 S2 is calling my name. Probably will reach $20k but it has an investment quality that the E36 M3s in my price range don't have.

Honestly. That is stupid money for that s2. If you're going that direction, get a 968. 4 cam 944s aren't as fast as you think and are peaky motors. With Porsche prices getting stupid, temporarily I believe, paying a lot for a 44 is a waste. I would never pay more than 10k for a na 944 or a e36 m3. But that's my 2c. Heck, I'd get a fiat 124 spider, dump an alfa 164 motor in it, juce up the brakes and suspension and have a sweet sleeper. But that's me ( and I've owned Porsches for 31 years, including 44s).

If I sold this car for $30k I would go for broke at early 90s cars. NSX or Viper.

Probably would end up getting the NSX.

I can't remember if it was mentioned before but why not a UrS4 or 6. You can get them as wagons, they came with 214 bhp but can be bumped up to well over 600, can take Porsche brakes and suspension upgrades. A real sleeper.

I'm a bit late to the party but I'll throw my $0.10 in

$20k for a 944S2 is batE36 M3 crazy, regardless of how nice the condition is. A nice-condition tastefully-modded 951 maybe, but an S2? The Porsche market has lost it's damn mind. I love the 968 also but that particular model is a bit high as well. If you want a toy that is to be DRIVEN and not stored and polished, you shouldn't be looking at air-conditioned-garage-stored cars with perfect paint. You can get a cosmetically-4-of-5-stars car for noticeably less than a 5-star one, and it will still look nice and you will save money/have money for mods/consumables. "Investment potential" should never factor into it, especially if you truly plan on driving the car to enjoy it. And because the bubble is going to, eventually, burst.

I don't think you'll find any Elises in your price range, and a C5 Z06 will just barely make it. Both are nice, but the C5 interior is crap. Same "quality" level in the switchgear as 90s GM products, it looks like the same junk in my wife's Trailblazer and old Cavaliers. Perfect for a track weapon, not so much if it's going to be more frequently street-driven and if you want a nice regular driving experience.

You should seriously consider the S2000. AP2s are inside your price range all day long, and an AP1 in good condition is even less pricey (I'd recommend swapping to the AP2 rear subframe and upper control arms, though, better geometry) and the interior isn't too much different. It is still a great car to drive at moderate pace on the backroads. It's like a Miata on steroids. It competed directly with the 986 Boxster S, and while the base Cayman is closer in power/weight, the S2000 will be more reliable, and SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper to maintain and upgrade.

I love the E36 M3, but they are getting old at this point, and the price point for one that can track and still be nice/comfortable on the road is going to put it into a bracket where it's outclassed by newer cars. The E46 M3 is very nice, I almost bought one before I bought my STI, but as mentioned the parts prices and maintenance are German Either M3 (36 or 46) will need the rear subframe reinforcement done if you're serious about track time. Also, the SMG shouldn't be a turn-off, if you don't like it after driving it, you can convert it to regular manual for something like $1500, and that's using mostly new OEM parts.

Knurled said: C5s are excellent cars, but they are also pretty sterile. Not as bad as 90's and newer Japanese cars, but they're still not very fun cars to drive.

What the hell are you comparing 90's Japanese cars to that you think they're "sterile"? Which ones have you driven? You realize that includes the NSX, FD3S RX-7 turbo, MkIV Supra turbo, S13 and S14 240SX, etc.? I mean, your avatar is a bridgeport, so I assume you've driven at least some of those and probably modded, but come on...

The auction on the S2 has another day yet and the bidding is at $13k. I agree that at $20k, the S2 is out but what about $15-17k? Still seems high but it is BaT. I have not driven a 944/968 but I hear nothing but good things. Maintenance being on par with the M3. I would prefer a 968 over the S2.

I am really looking for an alternative to the E36 M3, just for comparison sake. S2000s are being considered but unsure about owning a convertible and adding a rollbar.

Thanks so much for the responses! Great discussion.

Why not a Boxster or 996? Lower maintenance than a 44 or m3 and more capable. Get a regularly driven one with good documents on fluid changes, preferably redline level oils and you're in good shape.

FWIW, any 44 derivative will need a good grand spent on the engine if you intend to track it at all. Crappy design for track work. Don't know what Porsche was thinking.

The trick is finding a car that feels 'special' like an air cooled car does. That moment when you walk out of a store and see your car waiting for you and you get all excited.
What car would make you walk two rows over in a parking lot just to take a look on the way into a restaurant? I know some people are purely about the behind the wheel sensations, but I have to really want a car to be happy owning it. This has kept me from owning a Miata or an E36 M3 or a number of other cars. They're fantastic, but I can't help looking at them and feeling like I want something else.

ptmeyer84 wrote: In reply to Petrolburner: I keep coming back to the vettes. They really are the logical answer. But, the FRS/BRZ were also very logical but they just don't feel special. I drove three different examples and all left me cold. I really should have liked them having the perfect seating position, great seats, awesome shifter and pedals, are unique and good looking but the drive is blah. I wonder if the Corvette falls into a similar trap. So despite it's high capability, does the Corvette feel special? Does it bother you that everyone and their dog has a C5? Is a C4 or a C6 more unique? Does this post have enough questions?

berkeley yeah it feels special. I get such a grin walking up to our away from the car every time. The interior is a big upgrade over my C5. You really don't even need the Z51 honestly, just the six speed manual. Brakes and suspension will still be great. The noises with the Corsa Sport exhaust are giggle inducing. Kicking it sideways around left turns are really common for me around town. Blasting through an intersection from a stop sign to make a gap in traffic is a joy. Ok, so I just officially talked myself out of selling it in order to buy a house. Go drive a C6 and report back.

ptmeyer84 wrote: The auction on the S2 has another day yet and the bidding is at $13k. I agree that at $20k, the S2 is out but what about $15-17k? Still seems high but it is BaT. I have not driven a 944/968 but I hear nothing but good things. Maintenance being on par with the M3. I would prefer a 968 over the S2. I am really looking for an alternative to the E36 M3, just for comparison sake. S2000s are being considered but unsure about owning a convertible and adding a rollbar. Thanks so much for the responses! Great discussion.

For $15k I'd still want a 951 with (good) mods. I love the 968 also, but rarity pushes the prices up where it's tough to find that happy medium between polished low-miles expensive and ragged-out cheap. I did look into buying a street/track 968 with an LT1 and rollbar for $14k a few years back, the bastardness and the pre-bubble timing kept the price down I think

Re: S2000, the factory rollbars are adequate for some sanctioning bodies for running HPDE. Under the plastic fairing the rollbars are steel tube and bolted to the bulkhead, but there is no rearward bracing and depending on your height it it may be too short for an informal "broomstick test" from roll hoop to windshield top.

mazdeuce said: That moment when you walk out of a store and see your car waiting for you and you get all excited. What car would make you walk two rows over in a parking lot just to take a look on the way into a restaurant?

LOL I still do that to other S2000s, and I sold mine in 2009

mazdeuce wrote: The trick is finding a car that feels 'special' like an air cooled car does. That moment when you walk out of a store and see your car waiting for you and you get all excited. What car would make you walk two rows over in a parking lot just to take a look on the way into a restaurant? I know some people are purely about the behind the wheel sensations, but I have to really want a car to be happy owning it. This has kept me from owning a Miata or an E36 M3 or a number of other cars. They're fantastic, but I can't help looking at them and feeling like I want something else.

You hit the nail on the head. I wasn't willing to track or drive long distances in the 911 I sold but damn was it "special." I have a sneaky feeling that I am setting the bar too high. The problem is, I lust after cars that are expensive to operate especially if tracked. Just read all my responses! E46 M3, Porsche Whatever, Lotus Elise. I need to strike a balance.

I just found a Mazdaspeed Miata in Omaha.. I think I will check it out. Might not be special stock, but modifing it may bring out the special. My current DD is a Mazda 2 and I really enjoy the tossability of that car.

The saga continues...

ptmeyer84 said: ...but modifing it may bring out the special

This. Even small, subtle changes to the car to make it fit what you want from it will make it feel more "special" to you, even if it's a car that's somewhat common.

Petrolburner wrote:

ptmeyer84 wrote: In reply to Petrolburner: I keep coming back to the vettes. They really are the logical answer. But, the FRS/BRZ were also very logical but they just don't feel special. I drove three different examples and all left me cold. I really should have liked them having the perfect seating position, great seats, awesome shifter and pedals, are unique and good looking but the drive is blah. I wonder if the Corvette falls into a similar trap. So despite it's high capability, does the Corvette feel special? Does it bother you that everyone and their dog has a C5? Is a C4 or a C6 more unique? Does this post have enough questions?

berkeley yeah it feels special. I get such a grin walking up to our away from the car every time. The interior is a big upgrade over my C5. You really don't even need the Z51 honestly, just the six speed manual. Brakes and suspension will still be great. The noises with the Corsa Sport exhaust are giggle inducing. Kicking it sideways around left turns are really common for me around town. Blasting through an intersection from a stop sign to make a gap in traffic is a joy. Ok, so I just officially talked myself out of selling it in order to buy a house. Go drive a C6 and report back.

I will be honest, the escapdes with your C6 have made me consider a C6 sometime in my future. There is something about towing with a Corvette that is just right, almost special....

jsquared wrote:

ptmeyer84 said: ...but modifing it may bring out the special

This. Even small, subtle changes to the car to make it fit what you want from it will make it feel more "special" to you, even if it's a car that's somewhat common.

I wonder if there is a popular tuning shop that could bring out the special in a Miata and make it fly...

Hmmmm

What about a well built 914-6 copy with flares

A good one would probably 1) break your budget, 2) not be that enjoyable to street-drive frequently or long distances, 3) not be low-maintenance

But it would pretty cool

There's always an sti powered 914 too

mazdeuce wrote: The trick is finding a car that feels 'special' like an air cooled car does. That moment when you walk out of a store and see your car waiting for you and you get all excited. What car would make you walk two rows over in a parking lot just to take a look on the way into a restaurant? I know some people are purely about the behind the wheel sensations, but I have to really want a car to be happy owning it. This has kept me from owning a Miata or an E36 M3 or a number of other cars. They're fantastic, but I can't help looking at them and feeling like I want something else.

Keeping the Miata's top down when I park gives me this feeling. Something about getting into a car with the top already down feels a lot more special.

No way would I choose a 944 NA over an E36 M3 and I've had two 944 Turbo S's and I'm on my second E36 M3.

That S2 is very clean but at its current $15k bid is too much cash. That'll get you a really solid 944 Turbo S, which is a far more entertaining car to drive (once you get over the old (really old) school turbo lag) and out of all the 944 variants (normal ones, not club sports or whatevers) is really the only one with prospects of appreciating.

An S2 vs an E36 M3 as a fun street/track car the M3 wins hands down. Easier to work on, easier to maintain, cheaper to maintain, holds more people easily, makes more power and is much quicker on track.

I've owned two UrS4/6's and while they're an interesting ride I wouldn't recommend one. Old (really old!) school turbo lag again, numb steering, very expensive parts, some parts are totally NLA (front bumper cover damage will total the car now), and they're not very good track cars at all. The powertrain is a gem and you can make stupid power out of them but they're going to be very, very needy cars.

Talk to Keith about miatas. I don't fit in them, so while they're "The Answer" here, not for me.