So how do you learn how to drive manual "good"?

Yeah, you want to treat the clutch as a binary device when shifting, it's either in the carpet or your foot is off it. If you have the timing/revs right you should be able to sidestep it and get a reasonably smooth shift. Bad for the synchronizers and clutch to guess where it's actually fully disengaged.

Ok, I'm definitely using the clutch too much then.

Car is in the service center all day today / overnight. I accidently kicked the steering wheel shroud and busted it off. Also getting the damn seatbelt alarm turned off. I always wear my belt but it was you to put it on before even turning the car on.

I only really double clutch (up and down) when driving a trans with completely shot synchros

Sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy if you actually drive your car hard, but i realized that a lot of people, including the majority of car enthusiasts, really don't. Also, since you cant control the rate at which the engine slows down, there is really no such thing as a double clutched upshift. All you have to do to upshift without synchro wear is wait the right amount of time for the parts to spin down. Everyone does that to some extent without even thinking about it.

,I do heel toe a lot for the hell of it though, just single clutched.

Single clutched rev matched downshifts are ONLY useful for not upsetting 10/10ths traction while cornering. A double clutched rev matched downshift saves your transmission and keeps you from spinning out. A single clutched rev matched downshift just keeps you from spinning out. If you weren't planning to spin out while street driving anyway, double clutched is useful, single clutched is not. Not that you shouldnt do it just to amuse yourself. It just doesnt accomplish anything in normal driving other than keeping your rev matching skills sharp.

Unless you're doing abusive things like never changing the trans fluid or trying to shift a synchronized box without the clutch*, you'll probably wear out the bearings before a synchronizer ring.

That is absolutely not true. The only reason ALL manuals don't have worn out synchros is because normal people pretty much dont EVER do downshifts that land them 3000+ rpm higher than where they started. I do that all the time. I'm one of the people that will go from 5th (or 6th) to 3rd on the highway several times per drive. If 3rd gear goes to 85 i will damn sure shift into 3rd at 70! I also downshift back into 1st from ~20 mph pretty regularly. I have a 5 spd car that does 72 mph in 2nd gear. Ever gone into 2nd at 60 mph on purpose? I have! If you really want to drive the hell out of a manual car and get its full performance you either need to learn double clutched rev matched downshifts or learn how to rebuild manual transmissions.

*Regardless of what anybody says (unless a transmission engineers comes in and corrects me) trying to "float gears" in a synchro box is a stupid thing to do outside of an emergency.

Hey, i completely agree with that!!

chiodos wrote: In reply to snailmont5oh: Only person ive ever heard suggest not pushing the clutch in all the way between shifts...you realize even with the clutch fully depressed theres still some drag right?

That may be true of some clutches, but not all of them, and not any that I've owned or adjusted. A proper clutch adjustment ensures that there is an "air gap" between the pressure plate and clutch disk at some distance off the floor.

I had a 91 F-150 that had an inch of travel from the top before you encountered any resistance in the pedal (free play), and was 5" off the floor before any type of engagement occurred. Of the entire 8" of travel, all of the disengaging happened within about 2" of it. I only pushed it past half-way when I was sitting at a light. I put over 100k on it, and never had a clutch issue.

My adjustment procedure for the cable actuated clutch in my Fairmont is to push the clutch pedal to the floor, almost select reverse (non synchronized reverse, by the way), and slowly release until I feel the trans start to spin by trying to grind reverse. If I'm happy with the distance off the floor at which that occurs, I'm done. If not, I adjust.

I still use my clutch as an on/off switch, but I only push it as far as I need to.

@Vigo: Rev-matched single-clutched shifts are indeed useful in my world. It reduces wear on the clutch on downshifts, and if we're talking about using the clutch as a "binary device", then popping the clutch on an engine that has dropped to idle while you were downshifting (and the engine speed needs to be, say 3k) can snap some things off pretty quickly. If I did that, even just on my daily commute, I'd be laying "compression patches" all over the area streets.

On edit: I just thought of this; if rev matching wasn't the best way, then why would some of the newer, high-priced, drive-by-wire manual cars do it automatically?

Vigo wrote: Single clutched rev matched downshifts are ONLY useful for not upsetting 10/10ths traction while cornering. A double clutched rev matched downshift saves your transmission and keeps you from spinning out. A single clutched rev matched downshift just keeps you from spinning out. If you weren't planning to spin out while street driving anyway, double clutched is useful, single clutched is not. Not that you shouldnt do it just to amuse yourself. It just doesnt accomplish anything in normal driving other than keeping your rev matching skills sharp.

as I pointed out earlier … that's only the case for RWD vehicles … FWD downshifting (regardless of method) doesn't upset the car … no wheel hop, no spin out , the car/the transmission might not like (shoot, I'm sure it won't like it) but it won't cause the car to swap ends

not rev matching, again regardless of method, WILL eventually kill the syncros

In reply to Coldsnap:

Congrats on the manual transmission purchase. The best thing I found to learning the manual transmission stuff is to just drive. Go out for drives just to build up your skills. I got my first manual while in University and I would go out during the weekends and drive the country side. Focusing on roads that required shifting more often.

The other basic rules are covered already right?:

• Right foot brake for now. So you are always coming off the gas pedal.
• When you brake you don't HAVE to put in the clutch unless you are slowing enough to need to downshift. RPMS rule this decision.
• Stop signs I usually start braking-clutch in-shifter to neutral-release clutch-when almost to a stop I put clutch in and shift into first-stop-look-start going.
• Yield signs I usually start braking-clutch in-shifter to neutral-release clutch-blip throttle(some cars, like my 1995 neon, have a built in engine control to momentarily hold the last RPM so you don't have to blip here)-Clutch in-almost always go into 2nd gear for yields until I see another car then I put it to neutral and prepare to fully stop-if no car then release clutch and go.
• Practice downshifts without braking for a pretend corner on your favorite backroad straight with great sightlines. Don't use the downshift to slow the car for the pretend corner but go off the power very far from the pretend corner and practice a downshift matching revs then brake. Helped me to concentrate on the feel of it all rather than actually making a corner. You can do this going into a corner when your foot coordination confidence is higher.
• Modern throwout bearings are not going to go bad for a LOOOOOOONG time so don't stress it.
• Being a first timer don't freak out if you knock 2-10k miles of life off your clutch by slipping it too much now and then. It is part of learning.
• Stalls are normal. I even stall every once and a while now after 20 years of manual trans driving. The Evo is the worst to stall in because mine won't restart right away I have to key all the way out then back in. It just doesn't like to restart straight away.

Shift points are a car by car thing. If they programmed it to hang RPMS it helps at lower RPMS but when you fast shift at higher RPMs it will use the syncros in the trans to slow the engine. I based my cruise shift points on automatics for crusing so around 2500-3500 shift points. Saves gas. For performance you have to know your car. One of the big changes in the Mopar performance engine map for the neon racing was removing the RPM hang so when you come off the throttle to shift (3rd to 4th) it would fall faster to a lower RPM to match your next gear. On the other side it made braking and downshifting require more aggressive blipping of the throttle. Your car will have it's own characteristics that you will have to learn when shifting. Are 2nd and 3rd gear really close ratios such that the 2 to 3 shift rpm drop is just a few thousand? Or is the 3-4 shift a big drop?

Awesome, thanks for the tips. Especially the Yield one because I screwed that up real bad few days ago.

Advan046 wrote: If they programmed it to hang RPMS it helps at lower RPMS but when you fast shift at higher RPMs it will use the syncros in the trans to slow the engine.

The synros will bring the input shaft and clutch disc up to speed, but slowing the engine will be via clutch slip, unless you keep the clutch out and shift really hard.

Ah, got to see this cars hill shift mode in action. Someone was right on my ass and the hill mode thing kicked in and it didnt roll back during shift.

Bumboclaat wrote:

Advan046 wrote: If they programmed it to hang RPMS it helps at lower RPMS but when you fast shift at higher RPMs it will use the syncros in the trans to slow the engine.

The synros will bring the input shaft and clutch disc up to speed, but slowing the engine will be via clutch slip, unless you keep the clutch out and shift really hard.

Yess you are 100% more right than me!!

In reply to Coldsnap:

Your lucky to have a new fangled car with hill start assist! I remember my first time really driving a manual I was stopped on a big hill with heavy traffic behind me...that was also the first time I launched an awd turbo car haha, I didnt roll back that's for sure!

In reply to chiodos:

I still use the handbrake sometimes on really steep hills.

with a pull up hand brake, the "old school" hill assist is easy to do … but if your car is a foot actuated parking brake it's a bit more difficult

wbjones wrote:

"as I pointed out earlier … that's only the case for RWD vehicles … FWD downshifting (regardless of method) doesn't upset the car … no wheel hop, no spin out , the car/the transmission might not like (shoot, I'm sure it won't like it) but it won't cause the car to swap ends

not rev matching, again regardless of method, WILL eventually kill the syncros"

Just so I'm clear, here, if I'm threshold braking/trail braking at maximum longitudinal G in a front-drive car preparing to corner at the maximum lateral G, and I pop the clutch on a downshift, it will have no negative effect on my ability to negotiate that corner? I can see where it would have less effect on a front drive car than one with rear drive, but if an individual is using the brakes and steering to maximum effect, then adding the extra drag, required to accelerate the engine, to the front tires would cause the front tires to slide if they were at the limit of adhesion, or, in the case of trail braking, cause the tail to come out due to increased weight transfer to the front tires, if the fronts weren't already maxed out.

you might induce some understeer if you're that suddenly back on the throttle … which as you lift to compensate, will result in the rear end stepping out … but that wouldn't be because of the down shift … the rear is just along for the ride … especially if it's that unloaded … any sudden movements from the front end can ( and probably will) cause a reaction from the rear … but if you'll get your shift finished prior to steering inputs you should be ok

not because of the popped clutch (but then I don't side step … i.e. popped clutch, when I down shift) … the trailing brake in the middle of the corner … yep …ask me how I know … ALL my spins have resulted from still trail braking … (or getting scared and lifting … LOL )

but according to those guys I was having lunch with … nationally renowned drivers, team owners, and the driver/wrenches that are part of the teams … no … rev matching in a FWD vehicle is no where near as important as in a RWD (other than for transmission life)

and I've found this to be pretty much a truism … while I HATE what I do to the transmission when I occasionally find myself in a situation where I don't rev match … it, in and of itself, doesn't upset the car at all

while trail braking is a useful tool, it can have immediate results … especially in a CRX with it's extremely short wheel base … wasn't nearly as much of a problem with the Integra

I'm late to this party. Nice choice on a car. Also I had the opportunity to learn to drive a manual when my first job out of the Navy in 91 was a car dealership. QC Inspector, got to drive customer cars to check the work done, or if they couldn't make it do what the customer said it did, I'd try to recreate it and let the tech know.

Brand new Chevy, Caddy, Sterling (yes Sterling), Lexus, and even a Rolls or two. If I had no work to do, I was supposed to take a new car out and check it over. Having just moved to New Orleans it was a great way to explore the city. Didn't pay E36 M3 but was fun.

So remember the next time you take a car in for service. The person driving it might just be figuring out how to drive it!

Thanks Jerry. I've noticed the Abarth/500T has a really long throw for a manual sport. Much more than the VW GOLF and Integra I learned on. Is that how most italian cars feel/

make a sammich, braindump ahead...

for me the biggest attribute to getting good with driving a manual was just putting on the miles, miles, miles. shifting all the time (even if i was just cruising down the road...i'd shift up/down for the hell of it), learning the "rhythm" a car tends to naturally want to be shifted at and understanding exactly where the clutch starts to bite in the clutch throw. i also used that early time in my practice to experiment with a lot of minor things like my positioning in the seat - i found that i'm very sensitive to how i sit in the car. if i'm even an inch further away from the pedals it completely screws me up.

it took me a looooong time. such a long time. i sucked for months and months...i was horrible at being consistent. i had dreamed of driving a manual ever since i was a kid (idolizing racecar drivers and pure sports cars) and at the time (i was 18) i started to worry i literally didn't have the mind to work a manual - like, i literally couldn't get good due to some kind of mental block. it took about a year of really focused driving to be able to be almost imperceptably smooth at shifting, very little clutch slipping or stalling, and seamless revmatches. i hated that a lot of my buddies picked up the skill much faster but in the end i caught up, dignity mostly intact

after a while i started to move onto the next more complex things like heel-and-toeing, gear skipping, and double clutching so i could downshift into first gear at speed in racing situations. took about another year to get that down pat. i've been driving a manual nonstop for 15 years since then, and I'd consider myself pretty darn good. the only thing i haven't really tried to learn is some of the drift tactics like shift locking and clutch kicking since its too abusive for my tastes and has no practical application to any driving that i do.

the biggest things i took away from the experience:

• the clutch wants to be engaged (foot off the pedal)....if you've got your foot on the clutch you need to either be shifting or slipping it to take off from a stop.
• the act of shifting is all one motion. if you are overthinking, and slow on one aspect of the process its going to throw off the rest of the entire shifting process. for instance, if you know you're going to shift at a set speed in your mind, but then get hung up on the gearshift, your foot is likely not going to adapt fast enough to the change speed on the fly and you'll catch the shifter halfway between gears and grind the gear. likewise if you nail the gearchange but are slow with the clutch movement for some reason, the revs will drop past where you intended and you'll probably buck the car hard. practice until its a reflex and you'll be able to adapt the motion to any situation.
• i got much better, faster, by putting an index card over the tach. don't distract yourself with trying to match your shift to numbers on the dial. feel it and hear it, you'll figure out when to shift just by timing and intuition. once you've got that down, then start looking at the instruments again.
• i found that i shift best with the ball of my foot, right below the toes. just a simple rocking motion of my ankle and not using my whole lower body to move the pedal. once my seat was adjusted to where i could get the clutch pedal to the floor without too much excess motion or strain it was just right.

Coldsnap wrote: Thanks Jerry. I've noticed the Abarth/500T has a really long throw for a manual sport. Much more than the VW GOLF and Integra I learned on. Is that how most italian cars feel/

My first Italian so I have no reference. I put a short shift adapter from 500Madness for about $100 and it makes it much nicer feeling. Might have been the first thing I did to it, besides some go-fast vinyl.

(I finally had a chance to read thru this thread, I'm picking up useful information here!)

Jerry wrote:

Coldsnap wrote: Thanks Jerry. I've noticed the Abarth/500T has a really long throw for a manual sport. Much more than the VW GOLF and Integra I learned on. Is that how most italian cars feel/

My first Italian so I have no reference. I put a short shift adapter from 500Madness for about $100 and it makes it much nicer feeling. Might have been the first thing I did to it, besides some go-fast vinyl. (I finally had a chance to read thru this thread, I'm picking up useful information here!)

AH, I'm gonna get the short shift then. Easy install?

In reply to Coldsnap:

Very easy. PDF shows nice photos but it's mostly remove the plastic shroud at the gear shift, pop two cables off, pop the shift lever out. Fasten adapter to lever, pop it back in place, two cable back into place, replace the shroud.

@Vigo: Rev-matched single-clutched shifts are indeed useful in my world. It reduces wear on the clutch on downshifts, and if we're talking about using the clutch as a "binary device", then popping the clutch on an engine that has dropped to idle while you were downshifting (and the engine speed needs to be, say 3k) can snap some things off pretty quickly. If I did that, even just on my daily commute, I'd be laying "compression patches" all over the area streets.

The clutch on a stock car is relatively easily and cheaply replaced, while the synchros are not. Going to the effort of rev matching on a single-clutched downshift to help the clutch but not adding the slight effort of a double clutch to help the synchros is basically forsaking the forest to save a tree.

On edit: I just thought of this; if rev matching wasn't the best way, then why would some of the newer, high-priced, drive-by-wire manual cars do it automatically?

Feels better. It's not a higher priced car feature any more. Even $17k automatic trans cars do it now. It's more about customer perception than about trans mechanicals.

Just so I'm clear, here, if I'm threshold braking/trail braking at maximum longitudinal G in a front-drive car preparing to corner at the maximum lateral G, and I pop the clutch on a downshift, it will have no negative effect on my ability to negotiate that corner?

It will have a negative effect. How negative depends on whether you were at 9.0/10ths or 9.95/10ths and whether there was anyone driving right outside your line that you would run into. In general, it would be less severe on a FWD because it would induce understeer rather than oversteer, and because FWD cars typically have a much lighter rotating assembly than rwd (which typically means older+bigger engine) cars and have more weight on the front tires under braking than a rwd has on its rear tires.

Ok, I'm getting a lot better. Hooned it around town last night with a friend and he was impressed. I think it's funny that a week ago I could hardly pull it out of my parking spot.

wbjones wrote: with a pull up hand brake, the "old school" hill assist is easy to do … but if your car is a foot actuated parking brake it's a bit more difficult

Now you've got me racking my brain to think if I've ever seen a manual transmission car with a foot operated parking brake. Bonus points if you can name one that also has a dead pedal for a grand total of 5 pedals for 2 feet!