So everytiem I watch SCCA/NASA/Vintage races I want to get into racing. After going to the Hawk at Road America this weekend and talking with a few of the drivers, I have started my annual search for a race car. Unfortunatly my annual search yields nothing as I don't have any space or the funds when I find something, but this year my luck has changed and there are some funds and space available. So the search began and I stumbled upon this locally:
1970 Datsun 510 Race Project
Is this a good deal? It seems relatively decent for a rust free Datsun in WI, regardless of no drive train or interior. Should I be worried that it was a former race car but has no log book? I know there are better starting points, but I am always up for a project car and this way it would allow me to go whatever direction I want with the interior. What are some other things to look for when I'm searching for a potential race car?
Looks more like a stripped street car with a fancy paint job but I could be wrong.
That car looks like it needs a cage, suspension, drivetrain, seat, harnesses etc etc. Basically you'd be building a race car.
For cheap racing, its hard to beat a 1st gen RX7 built to ITA or Spec RX7 specs. Those typically can be found for about $3k.
First question I'd ask is what are your goals with the race car? What kind of racing do you want to do? From my somewhat limited experience, it's always better to get a finished car instead of a project (assuming the finished car is done right). How often will you get to race it? In other words, is it worth the investment and work? I've had a few track day cars and found that I didn't use them as I would have hoped. So now I run LeMons with a team and am much happier.
Take it from someone that's both built and bought race cars, buy one that's track ready first. Never underestimate the amount of time and money to finish a race car, especially one that someone else starts. I'd also recommend finding someone in your area that familiar with the series you want to run, and familiar with race cars and their construction. You need to take them with you to every car you look at. Nothing is worse than buying what you think is ready to go, only to find out the cage, seat, belts, etc., aren't legal.
Also, learn who in your area is a tech inspector and have them look the car over BEFORE you show up at a track. Meet people, talk to people, that's the best advice I can give. And do your homework before you look at a car.
racerdave600 wrote:
Take it from someone that's both built and bought race cars, buy one that's track ready first. Never underestimate the amount of time and money to finish a race car, especially one that someone else starts. I'd also recommend finding someone in your area that familiar with the series you want to run, and familiar with race cars and their construction. You need to take them with you to every car you look at. Nothing is worse than buying what you think is ready to go, only to find out the cage, seat, belts, etc., aren't legal.
Also, learn who in your area is a tech inspector and have them look the car over BEFORE you show up at a track. Meet people, talk to people, that's the best advice I can give. And do your homework before you look at a car.
ALL OF THIS.
But for a TL;DR version. Buy a car that is competitive in class. By far your most expensive mistake will be buying a car with a cage that isn't legal. At that point, might as well of built your own car. And don't buy a race car with rust.
I'd be worried that there is snow on the ground in the pictures of the car. Sure this car looked decent 6 months ago, but could be a basketcase by now.
Too bad you were not looking a few years ago- I recall seeing a flood damaged 510, but being that it was already a race car- it was done. Price was amazing....
The rust thing is important- I bought the GTV I have for sale thinking that it was a good car. Had I looked just a little closer, I would have seen all of the repair I needed to do.
(I had a GT jr that I was going to challenge, and the time and energy spent to get the '74 in that good of condition would have made a great car out of the '67. oh, well.)
Rust sucks so bad that the work will suck all of the energy out of you.
Good idea to talk w/ the drivers. Find a class and/ or car you like and pick their brains, road racers love to talk about their cars. If a certain car really strikes you ask to crew for the weekend, even if it's gofer.
Put the word out you're looking. Region folks usually know what's currently available or will be, as in hardship case or someone moving up after season end.
IMO, definitely buy a log booked car as your first car. There's plenty of routine maintenance work during the off season w/o trying to finish someone's project or building your own.
Although regional, IT always seemed like a good 'get your feet wet' starting class. Most of these cars are already sorted and have spares out the wazoo. You want track time w/o building or sorting a project car.
Besides maintenance items and upgrades don't forget to calculate in driver and safety gear, tows and goes, eats and sleeps. My rule of thumb: Whatever you add up multiply by 1.5 or more for realistic measure.
Good luck.
Agreed, That really isn't a race car at all, just a partially stripped out shell in need of everything.
Steer clear for sure ! ! !
Honestly, that one is a money pit with vintage-style war paint, you do NOT want to begin pouring money, parts, time, and talent into that hole in order to turn it into something else.
Keep looking, there are a lot of choices out there ! !
Luck—
^All of this^ plus:
- Buy a race car that's been recently raced and will pass tech w/o much needed.
- No matter how comfortable you are spending money, get used to the notion that the potential exists even at the lowest rung to expend time and money in quantities you never imagined.
- The cheapest money you'll ever spend is the difference in price between the car that's "ready to race" and the car that is actually, really fit to race.
Example: A friend was recently shopping for an e36 M3 track day car. He wanted something that was essentially an SCCA/NASA wheel-to-wheel car. I offered that my car, sort of for sale has had every-everything done and needs a wash and fuel to be ready. In light of the miles, condition and reasonable cost to duplicate it's an honest $20k car. For a good friend maybe $18, 750.
He bought a car for $13.5 and had a pre-purchase inspection done. It seemed OK, he bought it, brought it home and dropped it at the local reputable BMW prep/race shop for fluids, alignment + cross weights.
Turns out it needs every bushing, motor and trans mounts, a decent cooling system, oil pump nut secured, etc. It doesn't have a baffled oil pan, dual fuel pumps or a lot of other stuff, and the front half of the cage is welded to a bolt-in roll bar.
By the time he's done it'll cost more than mine which was too expensive. I'm not saying this to be critical of him but to hopefully so others won't make this mistake I've seen so many times.
Buy someone else's money for pennies on the dollar. Get the best car and if it's a couple grand more than you have, wait.
And go to a bunch of race weekends and watch all the races. See which classes have car count, see which classes are getting beaten up by the stewards in impound every time. See which paddock seems the friendliest.
And never cheap out on anything. It costs way too much.
I agree with purchasing a sorted race car. You should check locally see what everybody else is running, wouldn't hurt to have another car in the paddock to beg or share parts.
Buy last years track champions car. That is not a sure thing though.
Many get tired of winning easy and want to try something else or move up.
Get one at the races, not off Ebay or Craigs list.
Talk to other racers before buying.
motomoron wrote:
^All of this^ plus:
- Buy a race car that's been recently raced and will pass tech w/o much needed.
- No matter how comfortable you are spending money, get used to the notion that the potential exists even at the lowest rung to expend time and money in quantities you never imagined.
- The cheapest money you'll ever spend is the difference in price between the car that's "ready to race" and the car that is actually, really fit to race.
...
And never cheap out on anything. It costs way too much.
^^^ +a billion
So I've never bought a race car before. What to watch out for.
Ready to Race usually means "Ready to race, just add $10k and all of your free time for the next year"
Any add that says "ready to race" needs you to ask the following questions:
- Who sanctioned it
- When was it's last tech inspection
- When did it last compete and how did it finish
- how much trick E36 M3 did you take off it since then that you didn't subtract from asking price?
ddavidv
PowerDork
7/24/14 5:52 a.m.
bentwrench wrote:
Buy last years track champions car. That is not a sure thing though.
Many get tired of winning easy and want to try something else or move up.
Extreme caution must be applied here as well, because I've heard more than once of the "National Champion Winning Car" that gets sold and suddenly doesn't have that Nationals winning engine in it.
Building a road race car from scratch will cost you $8-10 thou. I did one, as inexpensively as I could, for a spec class and I'm close to 9 grand in the hole. I have a guy who will build a race ready Spec E30 with everything wearable replaced for around $12k. That's a pretty smoking deal.
Oh sure, you can buy logbook'd race cars all over the place for half that, but they are probably outdated cars that are no longer competitive in whatever class they fall into. Figure out where you want to race first (club, track, class) and then shop based on that. DON'T buy a car and then try to fit it into a class somewhere. Brand loyalty has no place in racing. Buy what works, not what will impress your internet pals.
ddavidv wrote:
. Brand loyalty has no place in racing.
This one line, I would not really agree with- DEPENDING on what racing you are going to be doing.
If you are out to race in a real series with really good drivers, and winning really means something, yes, it's very, very true. Professionally illustrated by how many times you see teams change cars.
On the other hand, if you are going vintage racing, where winning isn't as important as having fun. And one sees good battles all over the field. And you see cars that were raced at "the time"- a brand that you are loyal to is pretty important, I think. It will keep you enjoying the car, when you have to do an engine swap in the mud. Or when you are going into a tight spot, bumping another car really isn't a good option. Or when something happens to a car, and you want to walk away- it could keep you coming back.
There have been a lot of interesting threads about the most economical racing series and cars, which is really serious racing. If that's what you want, find them, review them.
If it's vintage racing, and you have your heart set on a 510, that passion will take you a long way to having fun.
But that's just me, one who's flame for Alfas and racing recently died out where I don't really want to go vintage racing anymore. Oh, well. Anyone want an Alfa?
ddavidv wrote:
bentwrench wrote:
Buy last years track champions car. That is not a sure thing though.
Many get tired of winning easy and want to try something else or move up.
Extreme caution must be applied here as well, because I've heard more than once of the "National Champion Winning Car" that gets sold and suddenly doesn't have that Nationals winning engine in it.
That is exactly what I was getting at in my last bullet above... a good friend bought a Nat Champ road racer for top dollar to find that it had a stock engine in it. At the level of prep it takes to win in the class - that was a $30k ripoff. It wasn't the owner of the car that pulled the shenanigans either. The shop that maintained it pulled a fast one on both of them. I believe lawsuits are still pending.
When buying a top car - make sure you are getting the WHOLE car and that it isn't some ragged out, tired mess with the same paint and stickers when it gets to you.
Since from your posting I would have to assume that you live in WI then what you should do is to go to club races in your area. Blackhawk Farms is in northern IL just south of the IL/WI border. It just so happens that there is a MCSCC road race there on Aug 3rd. Come out and watch, walk around and don't be afraid to ask questions. We're a friendly group.
As has been mentioned; what is your goal in going auto road racing? What class? Vintage, current era, Improved Touring, Production, GT, Formula cars, or sports racers?
Unless you are a good mechanic and fabricator buying a shell of a car or a street car to turn into a race car can be very time intensive. While a complete and running "race car" may cost more to start you will end up spending way less to get on track then if you started with a street car and much sooner by the way.
I've owned 3 different race cars, the first and last were converted street cars, the second did come race ready. I have also helped built 2 other cars for Lemons racing which is another venue to get your "racing fix" attended to. There a 14 hour Lemons race this Saturday at Autobahn in Joliet, IL that I'll be at.
OP said:
but this year my luck has changed and there are some funds and space available
how much? that'll narrow things down between vintage, GT-1 and IT's.
