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fifty
fifty Reader
10/12/09 7:34 p.m.

Since they've shared several platforms over the years and are now a single corporate entity, what're the chances of a 914 with a water cooled VW engine being legal in SM?

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/12/09 8:12 p.m.

What engine are you looking at? The VR6 is available in the Tuareg.

the one I think you are thinking of is the 2.0T...maybe? Are the rules of SM loose enough to allow sharing among "corporate entities"? Can I stuff a Hemi in an Alfa in that class?

mistanfo
mistanfo Dork
10/12/09 8:15 p.m.

No sharing between companies. This is why I cannot run a 5.0 in my Miata, even though ford owned a majority of Mazda when it was built.

Jamesc2123
Jamesc2123 Reader
10/12/09 8:24 p.m.

so wait, you can share between toyota/lexus or honda/acura but not between what you just mentioned? or are swaps like the first ones i mentioned not legal anymore?

mw
mw Reader
10/12/09 8:29 p.m.
mistanfo wrote: No sharing between companies. This is why I cannot run a 5.0 in my Miata, even though ford owned a majority of Mazda when it was built.

Doesn't the Mazda Navajo come with a 5.0?

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/12/09 8:32 p.m.
mw said: Doesn't the Mazda Navajo come with a 5.0?

BOOOM...Loophole!

Sonic
Sonic Dork
10/12/09 8:35 p.m.

Nope, Navajo came with the 4.0 V6.

Different brands that exist for marketing purposes only (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, etc) allow swaps, but brands owned by the same marque which have nothing in common cannot, i.e. you can't put an Aston Martin engine in your Mazda, even though both were majority owned by Ford at the same time

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/12/09 8:49 p.m.

actually, since the 914 was sold as a VW and a Porsche with both VW and Porsche engines, any VW or Porsche engine would be swapable.

I deal with 914's all day, you would think I would have realized that earlier...

mistanfo
mistanfo Dork
10/12/09 8:51 p.m.

SCCA 2009 Solo Rules

116.1.D.1.

Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi).

Now, I cannot remember,but wasn't the 914 sold as a VW at first? Or, at least powered by a Type 3 engine? Seems that it would be eligible before the merger happened.

asterisk
asterisk New Reader
10/12/09 8:52 p.m.

Wouldn't it have had to been sold in the US as a VW to count?

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/12/09 8:58 p.m.

no, because it was made as a joint venture that had optional engines from both manufacturers. (eg. the eagle talon example)

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/12/09 8:59 p.m.

plus the 914-4's were badged like this

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/13/09 8:01 a.m.
mistanfo wrote: SCCA 2009 Solo Rules 116.1.D.1. Badges that exist as marketing aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents. Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint venture between manufacturers may utilize any engine from any partner in the joint venture, provided that an engine from the desired manufacturer was a factory option in that particular model (e.g. Eagle Talon available originally with either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). Now, I cannot remember,but wasn't the 914 sold as a VW at first? Or, at least powered by a Type 3 engine? Seems that it would be eligible before the merger happened.

Close, it had the VW type 4 engine. So the answer is yes, you can use any VW or Porsche engine in a 914 and be street mod legal. Although I think there are some displacement rules for SM(it's been a long time since I looked), I always thought a 4.5l twin turbo V8 from a Cayenne in a 914 would be a ridiculously awesome SM car. Not to mention scary as hell.

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/13/09 8:13 a.m.

And using the same logic, a 924 could use any Audi engine. Actually, so could the AMC Spirit, Gremlin, or Concorde, since they also were available with that Audi 2.0l. I think the oddest one would be the Omni/Horizon. You could legally use any Chrysler, VW, or Peugeot engine in that platform. I wonder if a PRV engine would be allowed?

mistanfo
mistanfo Dork
10/13/09 8:36 a.m.

From Appendix A: Minimum Weight Calculations: All listed weights are without driver. FWD: 1350lbs + 125 lbs/liter RWD: 1600 lbs + 200 lbs/liter AWD: 1600 lbs + 300 lbs/liter Cars with engine located behind driver: +25 lbs/liter Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to weigh more than 2900 lbs.

So, the 914 with the Cayenne engine would have to weigh 2612.5 without driver.

skeeler
skeeler New Reader
10/13/09 8:39 a.m.
So the answer is yes, you can use any VW or Porsche engine in a 914 and be street mod legal. Although I think there are some displacement rules for SM(it's been a long time since I looked), I always thought a 4.5l twin turbo V8 from a Cayenne in a 914 would be a ridiculously awesome SM car. Not to mention scary as hell.

So, I say drop a Veyron engine into the 914 and call it a day.

Maybe "onto" would be a better word than "into".

skeeler
skeeler New Reader
10/13/09 8:42 a.m.
mistanfo wrote: No sharing between companies. This is why I cannot run a 5.0 in my Miata, even though ford owned a majority of Mazda when it was built.

Jason,

Ford never owned a majority of Mazda. The most they ever owned was 33.9%, which was a controlling interest, but not a majority. They are down to 13.4% now,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda#Partnership_with_Ford_Motor_Company

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/13/09 8:59 a.m.
skeeler wrote:
So the answer is yes, you can use any VW or Porsche engine in a 914 and be street mod legal. Although I think there are some displacement rules for SM(it's been a long time since I looked), I always thought a 4.5l twin turbo V8 from a Cayenne in a 914 would be a ridiculously awesome SM car. Not to mention scary as hell.
So, I say drop a Veyron engine into the 914 and call it a day. Maybe "onto" would be a better word than "into".

I don't think that one would be allowed. I'm pretty sure there's no sharing between companies, unless they specifically shared on that model of car. So you can run any VW or Porsche engine in a 914, but the other VAG brands are not allowed to share. Same thing with the 924. Any Porsche or Audi engine, but no VW, Bugatti, Lambo, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, etc.

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/13/09 9:15 a.m.

Audi did use a W12...that could be fun in a 924...or an RS6 V10.

I think a GT2 engine in a 914 would be the way to go. less weight requirement than the Cayenne V8 Turbo.

RossD
RossD HalfDork
10/13/09 9:20 a.m.

A worked over Audi 2.7 Biturbo would be a hoot in a Boxster. (Would that work?)

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/13/09 9:27 a.m.

nope. The boxster was only ever sold with Porsche engines...you could stuff any Porsche engine into it though...Again the GT2 engine would work.

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
10/13/09 11:36 a.m.
16vCorey wrote: And using the same logic, a 924 could use any Audi engine. Actually, so could the AMC Spirit, Gremlin, or Concorde, since they also were available with that Audi 2.0l. I think the oddest one would be the Omni/Horizon. You could legally use any Chrysler, VW, or Peugeot engine in that platform. I wonder if a PRV engine would be allowed?

Why use a PRV? It is a POS and a built 2.5 would make more power, let alone a dropped in 2.4 SRT-4 unit or some hybrid piece of the two. A turbo-ed VR6 might be fun, but then I'd want to make it midengined 'cause I think mod cars should be driven sideways.

Eventually, I'd like to do a V6 or a V8 Audi swap in my 924 just to mess with the 928 guys

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/13/09 11:42 a.m.
fiat22turbo wrote:
16vCorey wrote: And using the same logic, a 924 could use any Audi engine. Actually, so could the AMC Spirit, Gremlin, or Concorde, since they also were available with that Audi 2.0l. I think the oddest one would be the Omni/Horizon. You could legally use any Chrysler, VW, or Peugeot engine in that platform. I wonder if a PRV engine would be allowed?

Why use a PRV? It is a POS and a built 2.5 would make more power, let alone a dropped in 2.4 SRT-4 unit or some hybrid piece of the two. A turbo-ed VR6 might be fun, but then I'd want to make it midengined 'cause I think mod cars should be driven sideways.

Eventually, I'd like to do a V6 or a V8 Audi swap in my 924 just to mess with the 928 guys

Oh, I know it's a steaming pile, but I was just wondering the legality of it, since PRV was technically it's own company.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
10/13/09 1:45 p.m.
16vCorey wrote:
skeeler wrote: So, I say drop a Veyron engine into the 914 and call it a day. Maybe "onto" would be a better word than "into".

I don't think that one would be allowed. I'm pretty sure there's no sharing between companies, unless they specifically shared on that model of car. So you can run any VW or Porsche engine in a 914, but the other VAG brands are not allowed to share. Same thing with the 924. Any Porsche or Audi engine, but no VW, Bugatti, Lambo, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, etc.

The Veyron engine wasn't designed from a clean sheet of paper - it was based of other VAG designs. While Lamborghini and VW may be "makes related only at a corporate level," the amount of shared technology in VW, Audi, SEAT, Skoda, and Bugatti cars is pretty high.

But as long as we're thinking of outlandish things that could technically be legal, here's my contributions:

  1. Hyundai Genesis used an engine that's a joint venture between Hyundai, Chrysler, and Mitsubishi. How about fitting one of the older (and thus vaguely production based) NASCAR Dodge smallblocks into one?

  2. Take a MZR powered Focus and put a Renesis in it.

  3. Wasn't the Isuzu Impulse (RWD version) also related to the Chevette? Make an LSx Impulse!

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
10/13/09 2:00 p.m.
  1. I think joint ventures only work if the same car was sold with multiple engines, not the same engine was sold in multiple cars.

  2. Renesis in an Escort

  3. TRUE!

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