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Dec. 24, 2008 11:23 a.m. Salanis SuperDork

billy3esq wrote:

You seem to have similar car tastes to my own (Miatas, S52-powered BMWs, etc.). If I were you, I'd look for an unmolested SVT for your appliance. They're pretty cheap and are actually very nice to drive. Once I get my new (to me) track Miata up and running, the SVT is going to become my appliance, and I'm looking forward to it. Shoot me a PM or start another thread if you want more info.

So, teach me about the Ford Focus.

I've found that I don't need two sportscars. The BMW has become an appliance, and that bothers me. I'd rather have an inexpensive appliance car and a load of cash.

I think I need an appliance car. Something with four real seats, and the capability to load stuff in it. Looking for something pedestrian and reliable without being completely boring.

I'm thinking the best thing would most likely be a Ford Focus ZX5, manual, with a Duratec. Being here in Cali, we got the nice 2.3L engine for 03-04.

Billy was suggesting an SVT, but I've seen those commanding a much higher premium. And although they make more horsepower, don't they have less low-end torque?
Dec. 24, 2008 11:34 a.m. 92dxman Reader

I'm no Focii expert but the 2.3 Duratech was only offered in a few states with tougher emissions. SVT Focus suspension kits can be had on Ebay for around $300 brand new. Focusfanatics.com and Focaljet.com are the two big Focus forums.
Dec. 24, 2008 11:44 a.m. Salanis SuperDork

92dxman wrote:

I'm no Focii expert but the 2.3 Duratech was only offered in a few states with tougher emissions.

Yep, and California was one of them.
Dec. 24, 2008 12:19 p.m. walterj HalfDork

I can tell you what I know about the SVT... it is surprisingly fun to drive, reasonably quick but badly wanting for an LSD. It has a very very heavy flywheel and awful pedal position which make it difficult to enjoy rowing the gearbox - this is a shame because its a revvy little motor that makes all its power up top. Not very good on gas... 17/22 IIRC.

Terrible cold weather programming make it idle badly below 30F, the traction control cannot be disabled on cars that came with the winter package unless you buy software or disable abs too. So... long/short... great car that needs a chip, ltw flywheel and LSD to be mostly an awesome appliance but never a soul mate.

I'd rather a Miata or E30/36 and would probably save a few bucks going that route too.
Dec. 24, 2008 12:37 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

walterj wrote:

I can tell you what I know about the SVT... it is surprisingly fun to drive, reasonably quick but badly wanting for an LSD. It has a very very heavy flywheel and awful pedal position which make it difficult to enjoy rowing the gearbox - this is a shame because its a revvy little motor that makes all its power up top. Not very good on gas... 17/22 IIRC.

Terrible cold weather programming make it idle badly below 30F, the traction control cannot be disabled on cars that came with the winter package unless you buy software or disable abs too. So... long/short... great car that needs a chip, ltw flywheel and LSD to be mostly an awesome appliance but never a soul mate.

I'd rather a Miata or E30/36 and would probably save a few bucks going that route too.

Thanks. Fuel efficiency is another reason for me to lean away from the SVT, and why I think I'll look for a Duratec. I don't need to worry about low temperature though.

I do already have a Miata. It is my fun sportscar, and I intend to keep it. But the Miata is my track car, and I don't want to use it as a DD. I really just need a not-brutally-boring appliance to move me efficiently. This would, oddly enough, replace the M Coupe. Now that I have the Miata, I'm using the M as an appliance and not as a sportscar. I also feel morally troubled to not be using it as it was intended.

I am considering BMW 3-series. But the Focus appears to be newer, generally cheaper, more efficient, and bigger. Although a bit less fun, it seems like it would be less costly to operate, and have fewer troubles.

I don't think it will see much of any sporting uses. The Miata will do track, auto-x, and drift. I would like the Focus to be able to Rally-X maybe once a year. If I decide I need to get into Rally-X, I'd pick up another beater for that. But I'd like to option to at least try Rally-X once.

Does anyone have experience with the 2.0L Duratec vs. the 2.3L Duratec? Any thoughts on the power vs. efficiency of those different motors?

Edit: I'm also considering a P71. They seem to be either more beat-up or not much less expensive than the Focus. They aren't nearly as fuel efficient, especially around town (which is where I do most of my driving). I also kind of like having a slightly smaller car, just for ease of parking. The P71 could be used to tow the Miata... but I don't have space to keep a trailer at the apartment. If I do need a tow vehicle, my dad has a Ford E250 Econoline van that I can borrow.
Dec. 24, 2008 1:29 p.m. Hal HalfDork

In my experience the 2.3 Duratec has more potiental than the 2.0 SVT Zetec. I would take the standard 2.0 Zetec over the SVT version. That way you don't have the variable intake (which tends to break) and the variable cam timing to worry about.

I haven't worked with a 2.0 Duratec but I think many of the aftermarket parts from the 2.3 would be useable. Since you are in CA finding a used 2.3 is probably going to be easier than finding a used 2.0.

Get the ZX5 and then ~$300 for the SVT suspension kit and ~$900 for the SVT brake kit and you have all the SVT suspension under the car. That is what I did with mine and I think it was money well spent.

BTW: even with the supercharger giving me 223 WHP I still get the 25/33 MPG that was on the window sticker in 2001!
Dec. 24, 2008 1:38 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

Hal wrote:

I haven't worked with a 2.0 Duratec but I think many of the aftermarket parts from the 2.3 would be useable. Since you are in CA finding a used 2.3 is probably going to be easier than finding a used 2.0.

Get the ZX5 and then ~$300 for the SVT suspension kit and ~$900 for the SVT brake kit and you have all the SVT suspension under the car. That is what I did with mine and I think it was money well spent.

The 2.3 won't necessarily be easier or harder to find. As I understand, we got the 2.3 in 03-04. We got the 2.0 in 05+. I'm betting I can get an 03-04 for cheaper than the '05, despite having a larger engine.

I like the idea on the break kit. Don't all the non-SVT/ST cars have drums in back? Even on an appliance, I'd prefer to have disks all around. Without getting, the kit, is it difficult to do a brake swap if I can find a donor SVT at a dismantler?

Does the SVT suspension lower the car substantially?
Dec. 24, 2008 2:49 p.m. Hal HalfDork

Salanis wrote:

Hal wrote:

I haven't worked with a 2.0 Duratec but I think many of the aftermarket parts from the 2.3 would be useable. Since you are in CA finding a used 2.3 is probably going to be easier than finding a used 2.0.

Get the ZX5 and then ~$300 for the SVT suspension kit and ~$900 for the SVT brake kit and you have all the SVT suspension under the car. That is what I did with mine and I think it was money well spent.

The 2.3 won't necessarily be easier or harder to find. As I understand, we got the 2.3 in 03-04. We got the 2.0 in 05+. I'm betting I can get an 03-04 for cheaper than the '05, despite having a larger engine.

I like the idea on the break kit. Don't all the non-SVT/ST cars have drums in back? Even on an appliance, I'd prefer to have disks all around. Without getting, the kit, is it difficult to do a brake swap if I can find a donor SVT at a dismantler?

Does the SVT suspension lower the car substantially?

Yes, all except SVT/ST came with drums on the back. In 2001? there was an Advance-Trac option available that had rear disks. But I haven't seen many of those since it added $400 to the price of the car.

If you can find a donor SVT you will need to make sure you get all the necessary parts. You will need the uprights, etc plus the e-brake cable and the brake lines. Don't know about CA but finding a donor SVT in this part of the country is questionable. And condition of the parts (being in the "salt belt"), made it a better choice to buy new.

The SVT suspension will lower the car about 3/4". Not really noticeable unless you park next to one with the stock suspension.
Dec. 24, 2008 3:49 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

How much work was it to convert your car to the SVT brakes? The suspension upgrade looks like standard fare.

Hmm... looks like there's both an SVT brake kit and a Competition Rally brake kit. The latter has smaller front rotors for clearance with 15" wheels. Interesting.

Does the ZX3/4/5 have ABS?
Dec. 24, 2008 5:21 p.m. Hal HalfDork

Suspension was standard except that I had to replace one LCA due to a frozen(rusted) bolt that destroyed the bushing.

I had someone else do the brakes since It is much more involved. You have to change the knuckles so there are bearings, etc involved. Plus the fact that he could do the work in the evenenigs at the dealership where he worked. He had all the tools to do the job and had already done several of the conversions.

Look here on page 202 to see the parts you will need to replace.

Several people I know have gone with the Rally Brake conversion because of the 15" wheels. One of them already had the SVT kit on his car and changed to the Rally kit. He says he doesn't notice that much difference. If the Rally kit had been available when I did mine I might have gone that route. But the stock wheels on mine were 16" so it didn't bother me.

ABS was/is an option on the Focus from at least 2001 on. I have it on mine. It was a $400 option back in 2001.
Dec. 24, 2008 6:37 p.m. noisycricket Reader

92dxman wrote:

I'm no Focii expert but the 2.3 Duratech was only offered in a few states with tougher emissions.

Ohio is not one of them, and the 2.3 version abounds here. I see more of them than the 2 liter version of the Duratec, anyway.

Granted, 100% of them have been attached to automatics, but the majority of Focuses are automatic anyway, or at least seem to be, so that may not mean anything.

Fun cars. They're like VWs only better. The rear suspension is flimsy as all hell, but it's no big deal.

Two or three Spec classes for the car can't be wrong!
Dec. 24, 2008 8:58 p.m. SVTF New Reader

The Focus SVT gets 17/22 mpg? That's way off. I get 24 mpg everyday to work (1/2 city, 1/2 hwy). I get 33 mpg on the highway at 75-80 mph. Heck I get 13 mpg on Road Atlanta!

As far as comparing the SVT to an E30, the Focus is WAY better and cheaper to build. For E36, unless you're talking E36 M3, the SVT is still better. The M3 obviously pulls away on the straights but that's the only place. (I run with the BMWCCA) The Focus chassis is excellent, and very easy to drive at the limit, all day long.

Torque: the SVT has 145 ft-lbs max, most of which is available by 2500-3000 RPM - it has a dual runner intake setup that helps the low end. That's way better than than the standard Zetec. Yes it has a heavy dual-mass FW, so an aluminum FW should go in with the new clutch. The six speed Getrag tranny is terrific on a road course - but an SVT is NOT a drag racer. The 2.3 Duratec has a bit more POTENTIAL for torque and power that the SVT motor - so if you plan on engine mods then the 2.3 is a bit better. If you don't plan on a bunch of engine mods, the SVT is the way to go - the motor is already pretty much done (thanks, Cosworth!). It WILL need a tune (flash ECU) to get the best out of it. Try to find an SVT without traction control, although I think Turbo Tom can include turning it off with his tune.

A nice DD SVT can be had all day for $5k-$7k. They are all over eBay and Craigslist - and blue oval depreciation is your friend when buying used!
Dec. 24, 2008 9:14 p.m. billy3esq Dork
Most everybody has beat me to the high points, but I'll expand on a few things:
1. The 2.3 Duratec is torquier than the SVT. That said, the torque in the SVT is no slouch. However, given that you're in CA, it'll probably be easier to find a 2.3. They're a little hard to find (around here) without an automatic unless it's an ST, which are rarer than SVTs (again, around here--YMMV).
2. My SVT gets much better gas mileage than whomever mentioned bad mileage above. I get 25 in town and 30 on the highway all the time. The key is not to rev it too high. You can shift at 2200 rpm in normal driving.
3. The flywheel is a little heavy, but it makes it easy to drive smooth. Around town, I like it.
4. The pedal placement is a little awkward, but not impossible to heel-toe. What is actually more problematic is the over-boostedness of the brakes. It's very easy to get a little too much brake when you start twisting your foot.
5. The SVT brake kit is available from Ford Racing for around $800. It has everything you need to convert a regular Focus to the SVT spec. The biggest downside of the SVT brakes is having to run a 16" (or larger) wheel. Supposedly, the 15" Team Dynamics Pro Race 1 will fit, but I've never done it personally. As noted, the Rally kit will let you run 15" wheels.
6. The SVT suspension will lower the car a little, but not a whole lot. I'd guess 1/2-3/4", but I've never actually measured.
Dec. 24, 2008 10:33 p.m. walterj HalfDork

SVTF wrote: As far as comparing the SVT to an E30, the Focus is WAY better and cheaper to build.

I won't argue that the SVT is a good car but this is nonsense. You can buy a running E30 for $500 and its already makes more power and torque, driving the right wheels, with an LSD and roughly the same weight as the Focus.

SVTF wrote: For E36, unless you're talking E36 M3, the SVT is still better. The M3 obviously pulls away on the straights but that's the only place. (I run with the BMWCCA)

I get it - you are a fan... but I might suggest that at a DE you are probably a better driver than some of those E36 pilots... those cars are in a whole different league. Just look at the lap times of the leaders from JS (325) or IS(M3).
Dec. 24, 2008 11:31 p.m. dansxr2 New Reader

My wife has an '03 that she got new. Its got ~85k on it now and its a very robust and dead reliable car. The only issue we have had with it is that the Solenoid for OD went out and was repaired by the local ford dealership under warranty. If it weren't for the ZX3 I'd be walking as the Corrado is temp out of commission with a broken trans harness. BTW the same afore mentioned wife just gave me a GRM tee and a 2-year subscription, now is that love or what???.lol
Dec. 25, 2008 10:44 p.m. alex Reader

Are there any tricks to ID a 2.3 Duratech? VIN?
Dec. 26, 2008 2:55 a.m. Salanis SuperDork
billy3esq wrote:

Most everybody has beat me to the high points, but I'll expand on a few things:
1. The 2.3 Duratec is torquier than the SVT. That said, the torque in the SVT is no slouch. However, given that you're in CA, it'll probably be easier to find a 2.3. They're a little hard to find (around here) without an automatic unless it's an ST, which are rarer than SVTs (again, around here--YMMV).
2. My SVT gets much better gas mileage than whomever mentioned bad mileage above. I get 25 in town and 30 on the highway all the time. The key is not to rev it too high. You can shift at 2200 rpm in normal driving.
Yeah, the 2.3s are all over the place here. Sure, most are automatics, but there isn't a shortage of 5-speeds. I bet I could go on the local Craigslist and find at least two that fit the bill. Those STs are rare. I'm pretty sure they were the replacement for the SVT.

I am interested in hearing if there is a particular way to confirm that a car has the 2.3.

The SVT is rated at much lower mileage than that... but I don't know if that really means anything. Does the SVT require premium gas? Even if the SVT gets pretty good mileage, how much better will I do with a Duratec?
Dec. 26, 2008 7:44 a.m. billy3esq Dork

The EPA mileage rating on the SVT is bogus. I can do it's "old" highway rating in town, and only get it's city rating if I spend half of the tank or more on track. In most cars, my highway driving meets or very slightly beats the old EPA numbers.

The SVT does take premium. I don't know what the mileage would be with the 2.3 Duratec. I'd do a little digging on Focaljet or FocusFanatics to see what people are getting real world. You can also try the fueleconomy.gov website, but take those numbers with a grain of salt.

The eighth digit of the VIN will tell you the engine. IIRC, a "P" means the 2.3, but you should do a little research to confirm that.

The ST was sort of a replacement for the SVT. Before I'd decided that an SVT was what I wanted, I was willing to take either an SVT or a 2.3. Over a month or two (in and around Houston), I only saw three 2.3 litre cars with manuals, two of which were STs (and out of the price range I was willing to pay). That should give you an idea of their scarcity around here.
Dec. 26, 2008 8:56 a.m. SVTF New Reader

The goofy EPA rating on the SVT might somehow be contorted to keep the LEV rating???
Dec. 26, 2008 9:08 a.m. B02S4 Reader

I tested an SVT when they first came out. It was a great value overall, however the dash looked like it was designed by a Kindergartener, & it was ridiculously overgeared. The previous posters comment about the LSD is spot-on. Other than that, from my perspective it was all good.
Dec. 26, 2008 9:22 a.m. steamcorners Reader

Had one from almost new (bought with 6k miles in summer of 2000)--a 2000 Sedan with the Zetec. Drove great for an appliance car. Then the recalls came. Yet, I stuck with the thing. Somewhere around 15 recalls, and occasionally crappy service to boot (recall done on rear hub, they forgot to torque the hub after installing, drove car for a week, noticed a click, took it in, hub was one thread away from freedom!). Tranny (auto) finally took a dump in '07, with around 90k miles. I know, this is what I get for buying a "first-year" car, but damn, I have such a bad taste in my mouth from that thing. . .
Jan. 1, 2009 2:45 p.m. paulmpetrun New Reader

Ok all this FOCUS talk got me thinking about an entertaining appliance to drive since getting rid of my latest HHR. I had a chance to go drive an 02' zx3 5sp, and enjoyed it, but the same things bothered me now that did 8 years ago when I drove a brandy new at the dealership. First is the engine overrev designed to help people who aren't drivers drive smoothly in traffic. That seems able to be corrected with an aftermarket throtle body that is round vs oval and has a correctly sized idle circuit. The second is the fact it falls on its face at precisely 5500 and 1 rpms. I know the usual add on parts will help this, and its also something I could get over and live with.

I guess I am thinking like Salinas and leaning towards a zx5 with a 5spd, but really am wondering where to find one with the 2.3 duratec. I live in Pittsburgh, Pa and i can't find any zx5's around hear at all. Also will the SVT suspension kit fit the 05+ models. All I can find listed are for the 00-04"s. Thanks and happy new year
Jan. 1, 2009 4:45 p.m. Hal HalfDork

paulmpetrun wrote:

First is the engine overrev designed to help people who aren't drivers drive smoothly in traffic. That seems able to be corrected with an aftermarket throtle body that is round vs oval and has a correctly sized idle circuit. The second is the fact it falls on its face at precisely 5500 and 1 rpms. I know the usual add on parts will help this, and its also something I could get over and live with.

I guess I am thinking like Salinas and leaning towards a zx5 with a 5spd, but really am wondering where to find one with the 2.3 duratec. I live in Pittsburgh, Pa and i can't find any zx5's around hear at all. Also will the SVT suspension kit fit the 05+ models. All I can find listed are for the 00-04"s. Thanks and happy new year

Not sure what you mean by "engine overrev" but if you mean the slow drop to idle speed that can be tweaked fairly easily.

You don't need an aftermarket TB. There is an easy DIY mod using JB Weld and a Dremel that will improve the throttle response dramatically.

Finding a 2.3 in the Pittsburgh area may be difficult since it was only offered as a option in 2004 in that area and then only in the ST sedan for 2005-2007. You might have better luck looking north or east(New York and New England) but it would be a 2003 or 2004 to get it in a ZX5.

Somewhere around the 2005 model year the strut diameter was changed from 47mm to 50mm so the SVT suspension will not fit unless you also change the knuckles. You would be better off to find some aftermarket struts and springs for the 2005 knuckles since the increase in diameter was to remedy a problem. ie: pothole = bent strut where it went into the knuckle.
Jan. 1, 2009 5:09 p.m. SVTF New Reader

paulmpetrun wrote:

Ok all this FOCUS talk got me thinking about an entertaining appliance............ I guess I am thinking like Salinas and leaning towards a zx5 with a 5spd, but really am wondering where to find one with the 2.3 duratec. I live in Pittsburgh, Pa and i can't find any zx5's around hear at all.

If you liked the ZX3/5 at all, but want more like 2.3 Duratec, go drive an SVT! The ZX3/ZX5/ZTS cars are very pedestrian (stock) compared to the SVT. All the mods are already there, and they are WAY more entertaining than the standard Foci. There's one in the Atlanta CL with 79k miles for $4750.
Jan. 1, 2009 10:31 p.m. billy3esq Dork

Hal is right about not trying to retrofit the SVT suspension to an 05+. The better bet there would be to pick up the Ford Racing suspension bits that go on a Spec Focus of 05+. I think they sell the springs and dampers separately now. Look on p. 201 of the current ('09) Ford Racing catalog.

(Note: The catalog seems to suggest the suspension change was in '06, but I thought it was '05. You should dig a little to make sure you know what you have and what you're moving towards.)

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