BoxheadTim SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 2:51 p.m.

Looks like I'll be getting my grubby mitts on a '77 Celica Liftback on the weekend. First order of the day is to get it running well and then get the exhaust replaced as it currently ends at the gearbox without the benefits of a muffler...

Anyway, it does have a Weber 32/36 downdraft on it (which needs some tweaks, it's not jetted for a 20R and is missing the choke but it's running rich so it still starts...) and appears to be bog standard otherwise.

Any cost-effective mods this side of dropping in a 22R as I needs to spend most of my non-existing toy budget on the handling side of things and some bodywork...

Dr. Hess SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 3:37 p.m.

The 20R is a good motor. The head flows better, stock, than a 22R head does, but the motor has less displacement. The "hot" mod was to put a 20R head on a 22R block, giving you more displacement and a high flow head. Besides the usual stuff like a cam, carb and exhaust, what do you want to do? You have the best carb for it now, just needing tuning, and you need an exhaust. A header might help, or not. After that, it's BOOST for more HP. From my readings on teh net, y0, a 22R motor (stock) is good for about 300 HP with boost. 20R can't be any weaker.

You need to find the Old Celica Club and go through whatever they have in archives today. If you want to go nuts, you might also google up a 18RG motor.

92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 3:59 p.m.

Mmmmmmmmmm 18rgeu..... Delicious.

BoxheadTim SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 4:11 p.m.

I would prefer to leave the motor alone apart for carb, header (heck, it needs a new exhaust anyway, the cover on the original header is missing so I might as well) and potentially cam.

The car will hopefully see some track action, so I need to work on the handling and braking more than I need to get tons of power, at least initially. If it turns into a keeper, I'll probably try to build a semi-naughty 20R/22R hybrid that can make use of Weber DCOEs, but that's years in the future...

4cylndrfury SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 4:37 p.m.
BoxheadTim wrote: Looks like I'll be getting my grubby mitts on a '77 Celica Liftback on the weekend.

pics or ban

BoxheadTim SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 4:43 p.m.

Pics on the weekend...

ReverendDexter SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 4:46 p.m.

I had that exact car... I loved the way it looked... by far the sexiest car I've ever owned.

I sold it because of that turd of a motor, combined with the PITA California makes it to have late '70s cars.

What's said is basically it. If you want to stick with the R motor, look up how to properly do a 20/22R hybrid and get that weber set up to match.

I also HIGHLY recommend taking it to a driveline shop and having them convert the 2-pc driveshaft to a single piece. That center carrier bearing is essentially unobtanium these days.

You'll also want to do a front brake upgrade. Stock are pretty weak non-vented rotors.

IMO, the best thing you could do to an RA29 is get your hands on a BEAMS 3S-GE and 6-speed and swap that in.

DoctorBlade Reader
Jan. 4, 2011 4:53 p.m.

There has got to be someplace on the net that translates Japanese Engine Codes to English.

benzbaron HalfDork
Jan. 4, 2011 6:11 p.m.

Cool project. A 22r block is is cheap and plentiful. The basic question is how many do you want.

The thing that pisses me off about my toyota pickup is there are hands down more performance parts than my mercedes. For the toyota you can get tubular header, HD sway bar, poly bushing, etc, I can't find crap for my mercedes. Oh and all the performance parts are cheap.

Good luck!

Nitroracer SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 7:47 p.m.
DoctorBlade wrote: There has got to be someplace on the net that translates Japanese Engine Codes to English.

Sometimes wikipedia works. Or forum dorks.

ST_ZX2 Reader
Jan. 4, 2011 7:57 p.m.

77 Celica LB--my second car...was my 'ride' during my senior year in HS.

Was a rusty medium blue when I got it--became a bondo wagon, but was a nice looker when it was done. Ended up in BRG, with a JCWhitney front airdam and we removed the 1/4 vents and filled those in.

vazbmw Reader
Jan. 4, 2011 8:19 p.m.

I put together a pretty hot setup years ago. The stock 20r will not produce much power. They choke up at 4000rpms. Following Dr.'s recipe (he is an old ToyMods list dude who knows his stuff) is the ticket to power. You can get abou 180hp out of sidedrafts, 22r head, 300 degree cam. The thing the makes the engine great is the torque output. you can get about 200lbs feet. Here is link to a vid of the car on the road. I mistype '76, This my '78 though.vid The OCC archives can help. Some of those guys are still active on old style email board

vazbmw Reader
Jan. 4, 2011 8:30 p.m.

Thanks to the rock crawler guys, the Toyota performance stuff is there

benzbaron wrote: Cool project. A 22r block is is cheap and plentiful. The basic question is how many do you want. The thing that pisses me off about my toyota pickup is there are hands down more performance parts than my mercedes. For the toyota you can get tubular header, HD sway bar, poly bushing, etc, I can't find crap for my mercedes. Oh and all the performance parts are cheap. Good luck!
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
Jan. 4, 2011 8:52 p.m.
vazbmw wrote: Here is link to a vid of the car on the road.

He he, I've seen that video before when I was on the google.

At the risk of threadjack- on a 22RE, is there more power to be had with the EFI and Megasquirt or putting carbs on it?

BoxheadTim SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 10:12 p.m.

I think you can get ITB setups for the 20R/22R heads...

Looks like I've found some inspiration, too: http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/blog/2010/06/08/morimoto-celica/

Dr. Hess SuperDork
Jan. 4, 2011 10:20 p.m.

I converted my 22R to a 22RE with a megasquirt in my Truck. I also added a torquer cam. It is so much smoother and has more low end power than the original setup. Pulls my trailer great.

fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
Jan. 4, 2011 10:37 p.m.
BoxheadTim wrote: I think you can get ITB setups for the 20R/22R heads...

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartUniqueID=034D672B-558F-4C2D-930C-DD0FDB8ABD00

vazbmw Reader
Jan. 4, 2011 11:10 p.m.

LCE gets pretty pricey. If I were doing my 22r/20r today, I would go forced induction. At the time I did the '78 I was racing SCCA autocross and had to stay within class rules.

fast_eddie_72 wrote:
BoxheadTim wrote: I think you can get ITB setups for the 20R/22R heads...

http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartUniqueID=034D672B-558F-4C2D-930C-DD0FDB8ABD00

Mikey52_1
Mikey52_1 HalfDork
Jan. 5, 2011 4:57 a.m.

CANOE!!!

Zomby woof Dork
Jan. 5, 2011 8:30 a.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote: At the risk of threadjack- on a 22RE, is there more power to be had with the EFI and Megasquirt or putting carbs on it?

Assuming that the tune is right, on any motor, there should be little to no difference in power between a carb(s) and EFI.

T.J. SuperDork
Jan. 5, 2011 8:47 a.m.
Zomby woof wrote:
fast_eddie_72 wrote: At the risk of threadjack- on a 22RE, is there more power to be had with the EFI and Megasquirt or putting carbs on it?

Assuming that the tune is right, on any motor, there should be little to no difference in power between a carb(s) and EFI.

I don't agree with that.

Zomby woof Dork
Jan. 5, 2011 9:07 a.m.

Tell me why there should be a difference.

Air in, fuel in, what's the difference? It's in drivability, not power.

Dr. Hess SuperDork
Jan. 5, 2011 9:53 a.m.

If you look at power under the curve, it will be very dificult to match a EFI system with a carb. NASCAR carbs certainly can do it, but not many of us can blow 50 challenge car budgets on a carb. Then add in the EFI system's (usual, not always) ability to adapt itself to different ambient conditions, and CARBS SUCK.

So, I guess you could say that an EFI system will give more power more of the time than a carb system.

vazbmw Reader
Jan. 5, 2011 9:57 a.m.

The DCOE's always needs some adjustment for max power based on the weather conditions. EFI no.

As far as max wide-open throttle, the DCOE and the EFI will be equal, but for partial throttle EFI will winbecause carbs have some gaps between circuits. THere is a learning curve to the DCOE's and lots of jets etc to buy. EFI not so.

If I were to do it again it would be MS and homemade-ITB's Back when I started my 20r/22r there was no MS and by the time it came out I was thousands of dollars into Weber DCOE's

Zomby woof wrote:
fast_eddie_72 wrote: At the risk of threadjack- on a 22RE, is there more power to be had with the EFI and Megasquirt or putting carbs on it?

Assuming that the tune is right, on any motor, there should be little to no difference in power between a carb(s) and EFI.

carguy123 SuperDork
Jan. 5, 2011 9:57 a.m.

WOT is just one data point and you don't drive a car like that much of the time so yes EFI will produce more power and another upside is virtually no maintenance once you are set up.

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