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JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
4/29/20 5:26 p.m.
slowbird said:
Appleseed said:

$500 hunnert doolar, my ass. As Jay would say. That car will never win the race, so why worry?

Exactly this. The Lemons organizers want to see cool weird cars, and in cases like this, they aren't worried about it being fast or reliable, so they're happy to give some slack on the budget.

They just did a video about an Aston Martin that a guy got as a rolling shell, fabricated all the suspension mounting points etc. himself, and put a small block Ford in it. He even showed up and said "I know this is not a $500 car, please give me all the penalty laps you want, I just want to race an Aston Martin in Lemons"

So they did, and the car was terribly slow and didn't steer right, and it was awesome anyway because it's an Aston Martin in Lemons.

 

This is the content that I am here for...both the article about the viper powered rolls royce, and this comment that made me giggle maniacally 

buzzboy
buzzboy Dork
4/29/20 6:02 p.m.

An ex-aquaintance raced a few miatas in Chump and listening to him its about racing stock cars. Like, spending money to bring it back to fresh factory spec is encouraged, but allowing engine swaps and interesting engineering gets you penalized. Not sure if it's changed since then but the race I spectated at(Daytona 2014) appeared to be mostly nice examples of 80s/90s cars that are known to be good racecars. There were plenty of Miatas, Civics, 3rd/4th gen F bodies and the like.

Lemons is mostly still real racing. There are always going to be stupid cars(airplane) on track but it's still about racing. Letting a >500 car in doesn't hurt your chances of winning or change how much fun you're going to have. Letting people spend money to make their cars less reliable doesn't change who wins the race. Races are won by being fast, reliable and organized, not by bringing a ringer and getting penalty laps.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/29/20 6:15 p.m.

Fwiw cages aren't challenge budget free.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
4/29/20 6:37 p.m.

Challenge race car? $2,020, mah ass! laugh

noddaz
noddaz UltraDork
4/29/20 9:28 p.m.

That was funny.  I need to attend.

Yes I do.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/29/20 10:10 p.m.
Appleseed said:

$500 hunnert doolar, my ass. As Jay would say. That car will never win the race, so why worry?

By the time you have the average $500 car on the track you've actual spent between $5&6000 and that's just running. Doesn't matter if it's a Old Honda or whatever. $5-6000
On top of that Careful  assembly of a stock engine  still is going to cost you gaskets and bearings rings and parts.   Plus the cost of a roll cage and safety gear, fuel cell, brakes and tires plus a set or two of spare tires rain tires. Spares in the trailer, a trailer , motorhome or tents, gas cans, air tank, air compressor,  helmets (x4-5 ) drivers suits, HANS device, coolers food drinks. Etc. 

even with careful purchasing the total investment can easily top $10,000+ to race a $500 car. 

Yes the second race is less and you might be able to shave some of those costs a little bit if you're willing to sleep in tents and eat hot dogs and potato chips. 
 

remarkably it's still massively cheaper than a SCCA regional race. Just because they don't want $500 cars entering. 

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports HalfDork
4/29/20 11:13 p.m.

Why is this car featured here on GRM?   Because it has a Viper V10, which nobody else can possible build for $500 or even $5,000. 

So basically, if you want to get attention in Lemons you are competing against unlimited budget builds, that fact the build was a half-assed failure just made it more noteworthy.

In my view, the last decade of celebrated Stupidity is coming to a close, and that includes Lemons.

 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
4/29/20 11:52 p.m.

My take on LeMons is seat time. Where else can you get that amount of wheel to wheel time for that cheap? Not many. If you are hyper-competitive and like combing through a rulebook and protesting, there are scads of SCCA classes to participate in. 

Shadeux (Forum Supporter)
Shadeux (Forum Supporter) Dork
4/30/20 6:24 a.m.
Ransom (Forum Supporter) said:

What are those wheels? Anybody know? I fear they could be actual Roller rollers, but I've no idea what model/era, and I'm hoping they're aftermarket...

I need to know about the wheels also. Really neat looking.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
4/30/20 7:56 a.m.

The crushing of cars at lemons events kept things under control budget wise. When that stopped so did the original spirit of lemons and it became a race to spend money in ways that does not get caught. 
 

Back when it started you would never put decent parts in a lemons car. As soon as the crushing of cars went away we started to see thousands of $$ spent on suspensions that was hidden by black paint and undercoat. Or better yet the use of strut inserts is a great way to hide high end components. 
 

It became a different series but the masses seem to like it. 

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 10:02 a.m.
Appleseed said:

My take on LeMons is seat time. Where else can you get that amount of wheel to wheel time for that cheap? Not many. If you are hyper-competitive and like combing through a rulebook and protesting, there are scads of SCCA classes to participate in. 

Exactly this. I can go to a Lemons race and typically for less than $1000 all in, get 5 hours of actual seat time. Not many other series offer value per hour like that. And the racing is actual racing - very few cars are out there just puttering along.

iansane (Forum Supporter)
iansane (Forum Supporter) New Reader
4/30/20 10:15 a.m.
Shadeux (Forum Supporter) said:
Ransom (Forum Supporter) said:

What are those wheels? Anybody know? I fear they could be actual Roller rollers, but I've no idea what model/era, and I'm hoping they're aftermarket...

I need to know about the wheels also. Really neat looking.

 Early 5th gen camaro wheels, I think.

ebelements
ebelements Reader
4/30/20 10:27 a.m.

Seeing as he's from detroit, I would assume he worked something out with Mobsteel/Detroit Steel Wheels. They would blow the budget on their own.

https://detroitsteelwheel.com/

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter)
Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 10:29 a.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

No, Lemons WAS about $500 cars.  NOW it about being desperate to allow ANYTHING to race and pay the entry fees.   

No thanks, someone pooped in the sandbox with their $10,000 E36 M3can build.  Ain't playing anymore.

If you are there for the racing or worried that someone might be cheating, you are at the wrong event. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
4/30/20 10:39 a.m.

All of this talk about Champ, Lemons, and the Challenge made me hit the books last night. My Champcar Accord is GRM Challenge worthy. $200 for the car, $500 engine swap, $100 in homemade aero, $40 homemade CAI, $30 junkyard catback, $500 in raw roll cage materials, and about $600 in suspension components. Everything else falls within the guidelines of safety. Maybe we'll enter it this year if the event happens and throw some NO2 in it for the drag event. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 10:56 a.m.
ebelements said:

Seeing as he's from detroit, I would assume he worked something out with Mobsteel/Detroit Steel Wheels. They would blow the budget on their own.

https://detroitsteelwheel.com/

I thought wheels were budget exempt as they are safety items?

ebelements
ebelements Reader
4/30/20 11:42 a.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I honestly don't know the rules, just that for a set of steels the DSWs carry a pretty hefty pricetag.

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports HalfDork
4/30/20 2:03 p.m.

On the west coast, Lucky Dog is "budget racing without the bull" that is less expensive than Lemons without all the fake rules. 

I note also the Viper Rolls was not only WAY WAY over the advertised budget it also broke their 4200lb weight limit safety rules.  Nice.   

Lucky Dog is essentially bracket racing, they have no pretend fake budget limits.    I have my complaints about LD too..  :)

Lemons is also about getting attention, not just performance, so we compete for that also, we need an Aston or viper v10 to get attention now?

 

 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 2:58 p.m.

Dang, I'm losing it.  I could swear I posted this earlier today, but I don't see it.

People are complaining about this build.  Wasn't there someone on here a few years ago who did find a ratty old Rolls for something like $500 who was intending to bring it to the challenge, or possibly lemons.  I think it was three pedal racing.  

Five min later edit. So I found it, it was three pedal mafia, not racing.  Here's the thread

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/3-pedal-mafias-24-hours-of-lemons-rolls-royce-silv/59120/page3/

It died so I don't know if they ever raced it.  Note the lack of hate in that thread.  Oh, and it was seven years ago.  Ouch.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/30/20 3:19 p.m.
Appleseed said:

My take on LeMons is seat time. Where else can you get that amount of wheel to wheel time for that cheap? Not many. If you are hyper-competitive and like combing through a rulebook and protesting, there are scads of SCCA classes to participate in. 

I approach racing differently. I like building something with my own two hands and going wheel to wheel racing.  LeMons and Chump car  seemed like a perfect fit. 
What I hate is having to share it with  othe people who have nothing but their cash in it.  Out on a track with others of the same deal. 

Oops I destroyed,  broke, or bent your car. Sorry. See ya. And you need guys like that because you can't enter without them.  
 

It would be nice if all 4 guys had the same hours in the car and could do  the work properly but that just doesn't happen except in rare instances. 
 

I think they need to add an event. A short 20-30 minute track session for a modest entry fee. Let old geezers like me and new guys  or guys with new cars tip their toes in the water. New guys who don't want to be passed in a corner could  put a big X. On their trunk where the number would be. 
 

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie New Reader
4/30/20 3:29 p.m.

How much is the shell of an old Rolls Royce really worth? I'm sure he made a lot of money just selling off the leather covered pieces of the interior. This thing looks gutted to me. If this guy is in the salvage business, I would imagine he would send the shell to the crusher after he pulled off everything of value. Why not make it a race car instead? The Viper engine might be another story, but what if he used a sbc instead? 

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 3:36 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

They did race the Rolls and won IOE with it. It was slow and terrible on track but they got it reliable-ish enough to make a ton of laps. Sonic has lots to say about unnecessarily complex Rolls Royces. 

There are always a lot of sour grapes about Lemons (hmm, lemons, sour?) for some reason. Most of the people that complain have never and were never going to race in Lemons. They just seem to like to armchair quarterback someone else's race series. 
 

@frenchy: it is hard to build up a reliable team of guys with money and drive and know how, no doubt about that. Harder than coming up with a rolls Royce shell and dodge engine for $500 that's for sure. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/30/20 3:43 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:
ebelements said:

Seeing as he's from detroit, I would assume he worked something out with Mobsteel/Detroit Steel Wheels. They would blow the budget on their own.

https://detroitsteelwheel.com/

I thought wheels were budget exempt as they are safety items?

You can replace wheels up to the list price of original equipment wheels.  I don't remember if that''s  currant pricing or not. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/30/20 4:01 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

They did race the Rolls and won IOE with it. It was slow and terrible on track but they got it reliable-ish enough to make a ton of laps. Sonic has lots to say about unnecessarily complex Rolls Royces. 

There are always a lot of sour grapes about Lemons (hmm, lemons, sour?) for some reason. Most of the people that complain have never and were never going to race in Lemons. They just seem to like to armchair quarterback someone else's race series. 
 

@frenchy: it is hard to build up a reliable team of guys with money and drive and know how, no doubt about that. Harder than coming up with a rolls Royce shell and dodge engine for $500 that's for sure. 

When Chump car Racing first started I got all excited. built a XJS V12 and goober klutzed it to work with two junk Saab turbo's.  I  documented I was actually under the $500 limit. Not quite done I went to one of their  events to watch and talk to tech guys etc. 

I recognized the signs of novice drivers but the junky Jag wasn't that nice anyway.   However talking to their tech inspectors I found out about  penalty laps and calculating the fuel mileage penalty  I calculated 2-3 extra pit stops of 5 minutes each.  Then they started with talk about crushing cars  and I gave up.

One of the guys who was real eager to join me made me an offer for the car high enough so I came pretty close to breaking even. He just wanted it for the street.   

I reconsidered when they changed the rules and bought my currant XJS  but just can't strip it out.  It's too nice. Almost worth street driving it myself.  But power to weight is 17-1. With a automatic and a 2:88-1 final drive.  If I strip it out and don't put a cage in  with a few minor engine mods I can be near 10-1  but it will be a gutted out car.   The transmission will be that Seinz 5 speed dog ring. Quick ratio change and a 3:54-1   But Dog rings require foot flat to the floor shifting.   Not exactly streetable. 
Does that make me a Poseur?  Track day events?   They are plenty expensive for not really being able to race.  

newrider3
newrider3 New Reader
4/30/20 4:04 p.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

Why is this car featured here on GRM?   Because it has a Viper V10, which nobody else can possible build for $500 or even $5,000. 

So basically, if you want to get attention in Lemons you are competing against unlimited budget builds, that fact the build was a half-assed failure just made it more noteworthy.

In my view, the last decade of celebrated Stupidity is coming to a close, and that includes Lemons.

 

Weird, because I managed to get the same type of feature by welding random E36 M3 onto my Lemons car and by junkyard shopping and buying cheap Craigslist donors. I can guarantee we have never built a Lemons car on an "unlimited" budget, and the judges love what we do. 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/meet-1uz-powered-volvo-940-wagon/

 

I wholeheartedly disagree that the end of the People's Curse "ruined" Lemons. In fact, I would've been far less likely to ever start in the first place if that practice were still a thing. Sure, we get 1 to 2 "real racer" dinguses per race who normally run in more expensive series who drive and act like they're better than everyone else because they're "serious racers", but they're in the minority, and I don't go to the track to pay attention to them anyway. We race Lemons to build fun stuff and see other people build fun stuff, and to party and hang out with likeminded builders/backyard engineers/racers. 

 

dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

There are always a lot of sour grapes about Lemons (hmm, lemons, sour?) for some reason. Most of the people that complain have never and were never going to race in Lemons. They just seem to like to armchair quarterback someone else's race series. 

Quoted for truth.

Honestly, if you feel in your heart that Chump/Lucky Dog/whoever is better Real Racing(tm), please, go there, stay out of Lemons because your attitude makes it less fun for the rest of us. 

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