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DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
4/30/20 4:37 p.m.

newrider - I originally built my Accord to go race in Lemons. The charade of catering to misfits fit my liking as did the creativity and wild designs of those who entered. While building my car they decided to stop having events in Florida and just traveling to one of their venues meant two extra days of time off to attend so we focused our efforts on Chump. A bit more serious but the foundations are similar enough. The more I've raced with Chu(a)mp, the more I've grown to love it, and the less I've even cared to run in Lemons. I've been to plenty of Lemons events, it's cultish and somewhat cold to outsiders but they are fun. I prefer more competitiveness in racing than it seems to enforce in it's ideals but to each their own. 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
4/30/20 5:19 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Dang, I'm losing it.  I could swear I posted this earlier today, but I don't see it.

People are complaining about this build.  Wasn't there someone on here a few years ago who did find a ratty old Rolls for something like $500 who was intending to bring it to the challenge, or possibly lemons.  I think it was three pedal racing.  

Five min later edit. So I found it, it was three pedal mafia, not racing.  Here's the thread

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/3-pedal-mafias-24-hours-of-lemons-rolls-royce-silv/59120/page3/

It died so I don't know if they ever raced it.  Note the lack of hate in that thread.  Oh, and it was seven years ago.  Ouch.

They were crushing cars 7 years ago

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
4/30/20 6:15 p.m.
dean1484 said:
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Dang, I'm losing it.  I could swear I posted this earlier today, but I don't see it.

People are complaining about this build.  Wasn't there someone on here a few years ago who did find a ratty old Rolls for something like $500 who was intending to bring it to the challenge, or possibly lemons.  I think it was three pedal racing.  

Five min later edit. So I found it, it was three pedal mafia, not racing.  Here's the thread

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/3-pedal-mafias-24-hours-of-lemons-rolls-royce-silv/59120/page3/

It died so I don't know if they ever raced it.  Note the lack of hate in that thread.  Oh, and it was seven years ago.  Ouch.

They were crushing cars 7 years ago

That was me and my team.  We left the car completely stock.  It was wonderful, and terrible, at the same time.  We had our fun and sold the car on down the road.  

 

 Our team has run the table from terrible (Rolls, Citroen SM), to wacky (Sea Sprite boat on an S10 chassis that came as high as 20th overall), to actually fast and good (swapped Civic, 3.8 RX7, Cressida) and have many top 10 finishes and fast lap of the race.   The fun is that no matter what you are driving, there is someone to race.  I can assure you that at the pointy end of the field where we are now, the racing is very competitive, but if one of those teams break, we are right there to help give them a part or tool or extra hand.  The community is unlike any other series I have seen.  

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/30/20 9:23 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

The last crushed car was 10 years ago. I was there. The crushed car was a volunteered Bradley gt. The cars owner hated it and said - please crush this thing. Other than that they haven't done the people's curse in over a decade. There have been way more lemons races since they eliminated it than there were with it. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/30/20 9:57 p.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

Why is this car featured here on GRM?   Because it has a Viper V10, which nobody else can possible build for $500 or even $5,000. 

So basically, if you want to get attention in Lemons you are competing against unlimited budget builds, that fact the build was a half-assed failure just made it more noteworthy.

In my view, the last decade of celebrated Stupidity is coming to a close, and that includes Lemons.

 

I've seen  some decent or interesting cars go for cheap.   Not every day or well marketed but real legitimate sales. Back in the Grey market days  cars that couldn't be licensed or insured would quietly  be sold for disgustingly cheap money.  
Since tittles are not required for race cars  some would naturally wind up there. 
A Rolls Royce is a Uber expensive car to restore  and  given the manner they typically are driven and rarity it's extremely unlikely a body shop would go junkyard shopping for a front clip.  
     Frankly who would want a ratty, rusty old Rolls Royce?  I mean it would be cool to have a Rolls Royce hubcap or Grill hanging on my garage wall but I wouldn't know where to go shopping for one would you?  Plus chances are whoever has it is going to ask silly money for something that will simply collect dust. 
Can't you imagine a restoration shop stuck with a car that needs 10's of thousands of dollars  worth of work and the over extended owner simply gives up on it?  What now?  Mechanics lien on something that needs more than it's worth?  

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
4/30/20 10:57 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to dean1484 :

The last crushed car was 10 years ago. I was there. The crushed car was a volunteered Bradley gt. The cars owner hated it and said - please crush this thing. Other than that they haven't done the people's curse in over a decade. There have been way more lemons races since they eliminated it than there were with it. 

And your point is?  They crushed cars as late as 2014. The last race I was at (and we won) was the first race after the rule change. My point is that with the people's curse in place it kept the spending in check. As soon as it was stopped the spending started. It does not mean that it has not been a successful series post the people's curse. But it is in my mind the event that changed the series from what it started out as and what it is today

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
4/30/20 11:00 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I seem to remember a top gear episode where Clarkson drove a rolls into a swimming pool.  I'm sure it was a similar situation.

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
4/30/20 11:12 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

We must have been there, and may have met.  Which team were you on?  
 

One other point, for some people like the builder of the V10 Rolls, Lemons is a creative outlet for them to build something that makes them happy, even if it isn't "competitive".  In that way it is very similar to the GRM Challenge, where 2/3 of the field is happy to make what they want to and can make and be part of the action, fully knowing they are not going to win anything, just because they find it fun.  (3x challenge competitor here from pointy end to mid pack from $2002-$2012). 

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports HalfDork
5/1/20 12:40 a.m.

Lemons allows any car to run, being a Rolls was not an issue, except the car weight which I think is a serious issue for the safety of everyone else.

The issue is using a Viper V10 motor.   A Viper V10 is not just super expensive,  it isn't "spirit of lemons", which is racing junk not supposed to be raced.  A stock Rolls, THAT is Lemony.  But you can even run a LS-powered Miata in Lemons, they  just give you penalty laps, like the Billion the Aston got.   

The V8 Miata with the Caddy V8 is an example of Lemons awesomeness.  Taking something NOT supposed to go fast, and making it do so. 

Taking a V10 and make it barely run?   Then win Organizers Choice award?     

 

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter)
Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 7:31 a.m.

In reply to nimblemotorsports :

Again, I think you are mistaken about the spirit of Lemons. Anything ridiculous belongs in Lemons no matter the actual price of the vehicle. There is Zero chance a V10 powered Rolls is going to win so why worry about how much the guy spent bringing it to the track. Just be glad you get to witness the carnage.

The spirit of Lemons isn't about fast cars. It isn't about racing. It isn't about $500 cars. It's about a group of people coming together to have a fun time with cars at a race track. Think of the rules, beyond safety, as more of guidelines. Winning the race is a distant 3rd or 4th on the scale of importance. They give their biggest trophy not to the fastest car, but to the most ridiculous car and fun team at the track. 

If you want to race were the rules are important and followed, might I suggest the SCCA. I have literally wallpapered a Lemons car with the GCR and had many pages left over. #funwithrules 

Or NASA. Pretty sure they are cranking up a budget team endurance series. 

If you are all about the race, don't race Lemons. Try the above recommendations. 

If you want to follow a strict budget, don't race Lemons. Hit up the Challenge. 

There are lots of options out there for just about everyone that want's to get on a racetrack. If Lemons isn't it, find one you enjoy and ignore the drunk, stupid people over here in the corner. wink

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 8:14 a.m.

I'm surprised people are so pissed about this.  Let's stop saying it's Rolls with a Viper engine.  Instead let's reframe it for what it is.  Its the remains of an old British sedan shell that has everything useful stripped off.  It's got a Live Ford rear axle, it's got Chevy front frame rails and suspension with a smoking Fiat truck engine.  Does that sound better to the haters?

BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter)
BlueInGreen - Jon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/1/20 8:44 a.m.

I think it’s totally in the Spirit of Lemons. It’s an absurd chassis stuffed with an absurd (for the application) engine.

Cooter
Cooter UberDork
5/1/20 8:54 a.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:

Yeah, and the creator Darko has spent FAR more than just a couple thousand on this monster.

Also, those V10 truck motors only share the bottom end. I think even the water pump is different from the truck to the Viper.

The SRT-10 Ram engine is NOT the same engine as the cast iron Ram V10 in the regular models.

 

Person Who Swapped a Viper Srt10 in Place of a  RAM SRT-10 said:  

The engine itself is the same. The exhaust manifolds are different, the oil pan and pickup are different, the water outlet is different, the throttle body (linkage) is different, motor mounts are different, and the wiring harness is different. All of the accessory drive is the same with the exception of a milled 'flat' with a threaded hole in it, on the upper idler pulley boss for a wire retaining tab.




As for Darko, I have known him for over a decade, going back to some offroad forums I moderated.     He runs a salvage business, and gets all sorts of stuff for dirty cheap.   $500 cAr?  Of course not, but cheaper than many here may think.

volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter)
volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
5/1/20 9:02 a.m.

As per the weight thing, we requested (and got) a weight waiver to run our 1975 Ford LTD Landau.  The weight rule is just to act as a check- they don't want someone running an F350 dually jacked up 6" so the front bumper is at the helmet of a Miata driver.  It's easy- you want to run a truck, or a rolls, or an ambulance- you just write to LeMons HQ, you tell them what you want to do, and how it's not going to be a rolling missile for everyone else on the track, and they'll generally be good with it.  There's still the safety inspection at each race that every car has to pass.  So if someone shows up with something dangerous, it won't be allowed on track. 

We've run the whole gamut of what's considered cars in the "spirit" of LeMons- from a bone-stock but caged Volvo 122 to the crazy contraction called "Plymford" that I cobbled together from the above-mentioned LTD and the rusty relic of a 1951 Plymouth.  It doesn't take extraordinary amounts of money- it takes creativity, imagination, skill, and the willingness and ability to plan and execute- plus organize a few other people with you to help out and drive.  Trust me, we do this on a very shoe-stringy budget, and we have still gotten plenty of LeMons coverage.  Google "Tunachuckers" sometime. 

Here, I'll start, with this...

 

 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 9:35 a.m.

Do you guys with Lemons/Chu(a)mp experience have links to some decent builds?  Not the outrageous and wild stuff like planes or even the Plymford (read every word and loved it).  But a decent starter build on a regular(ish) easily available car so some of us outsiders can see what a reasonable first effort would entail and cost?

 

 

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter)
Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 9:37 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse (Forum Supporter) said:

 

Here, I'll start, with this...

Happy to say the S.C.C.A. (Senior Citizens Club of America) and the GCR papered Civic made that write-up as well. 

Klayfish
Klayfish PowerDork
5/1/20 10:06 a.m.
Sonic said:
dean1484 said:
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Dang, I'm losing it.  I could swear I posted this earlier today, but I don't see it.

People are complaining about this build.  Wasn't there someone on here a few years ago who did find a ratty old Rolls for something like $500 who was intending to bring it to the challenge, or possibly lemons.  I think it was three pedal racing.  

Five min later edit. So I found it, it was three pedal mafia, not racing.  Here's the thread

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/3-pedal-mafias-24-hours-of-lemons-rolls-royce-silv/59120/page3/

It died so I don't know if they ever raced it.  Note the lack of hate in that thread.  Oh, and it was seven years ago.  Ouch.

They were crushing cars 7 years ago

That was me and my team.  We left the car completely stock.  It was wonderful, and terrible, at the same time.  We had our fun and sold the car on down the road.  

 

 Our team has run the table from terrible (Rolls, Citroen SM), to wacky (Sea Sprite boat on an S10 chassis that came as high as 20th overall), to actually fast and good (swapped Civic, 3.8 RX7, Cressida) and have many top 10 finishes and fast lap of the race.   The fun is that no matter what you are driving, there is someone to race.  I can assure you that at the pointy end of the field where we are now, the racing is very competitive, but if one of those teams break, we are right there to help give them a part or tool or extra hand.  The community is unlike any other series I have seen.  

All of this exactly.  Yes, I'm likely to agree with Sonic because we're teammates.  However, I was coming in here to literally say the same thing....which is why everyone on our team gets along so well, we're all of the same mind.

I have had the privilege to race something like 30 Lemons events now.  I don't know how many other people in the country (or world for that matter) can lay claim to the things I've gotten to do on a racetrack.  I've raced a true nearly bone stock Rolls Royce, a Citroen SM, a truck with a literal boat body on it.  Those were the "slow" cars.  Built for IOE and each one won it.  The boat was actually faster than it had a right to be.  As Sonic said, it finished as high as 20th, and for years was never "in the way" as it was respectably fast.  Oh, and how many people can say they got to rollerblade around a paddock while being pulled by a boat...just like water skiing on land, LOL.  I've also been on the pointy end of the field, having driven a bunch of different class B and now class A cars.  I'm currently a driver of the Cressida that Sonic mentioned.  It never sets fastest lap of the race, but it's fast enough to be at the top end of the fied, is dead nuts consistent and reliable.  It constantly finishes top 10, and has been as high as 4th overall.  At that end of the field, I can assure you the racing is "real" and is real competitive.  We're not out there for a Sunday drive.  No matter what I was driving, I always found someone to "race" with.  LeMons is also a community.  While we do race and race hard, we're there to have a good time.  But at the end of the day, we don't take ourselves too seriously.  It's great to go to the track and see people you only see a few times a year and enjoy laughs with them.  These friends are the first to help another team out if they need it, even if they are in direct competition.  I suppose either you "get" LeMons or you don't.  I totally get it and am addicted. 

I've also been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to work on the staff of LeMons at a race last year.  I enjoyed it just about as much as being in the race and can tell you the staff at LeMons is just as awesome as the people who race it.  They take the safety of the competitors VERY seriously, but still remember we're all there to have a great time. 

Greg Smith (Forum Supporter)
Greg Smith (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/1/20 10:08 a.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

All of this talk about Champ, Lemons, and the Challenge made me hit the books last night. My Champcar Accord is GRM Challenge worthy. $200 for the car, $500 engine swap, $100 in homemade aero, $40 homemade CAI, $30 junkyard catback, $500 in raw roll cage materials, and about $600 in suspension components. Everything else falls within the guidelines of safety. Maybe we'll enter it this year if the event happens and throw some NO2 in it for the drag event. 

DO IT!!

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
5/1/20 10:28 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you guys with Lemons/Chu(a)mp experience have links to some decent builds?  Not the outrageous and wild stuff like planes or even the Plymford (read every word and loved it).  But a decent starter build on a regular(ish) easily available car so some of us outsiders can see what a reasonable first effort would entail and cost?

 

 

My facebook group for my raceteam just had a "post pictures up that you have of the car over the years" thread. I will start a build thread. We built a 94 Accord - easily available, kind of obscure, accepts parts from the NSX, Odyssey, Acura CLs, and JDM/EDM Accords. (you know those badass Accords that raced in BTCC??? I hope you do). 

We got into our first chumprace at under $6000. We did get a few freebies from some local sponsors...sometimes it pays to have a good salesman on your team. Also the Arduino shift lights I made - arduinos don't like endurance racing at all. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/1/20 10:52 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to nimblemotorsports :

So how do you really feel?

I know what you mean, but it's the nature of competition.  Forget that, its the nature of reality.  Look at the $20xx challenge.  It started as the $1,500 challenge, then became the $20xx challenge.  Then safety items were allowed, than replacement brake parts, then tires, then roll cages etc.  Now it's the $20xx challenge plus an additional $1-3K in 'free' stuff.  That's part of why I think they should remove the budget cap and I bet the challenge would still be just as cool.  Just replaced the year cost cap with a BS score.  Same with LeMons and Chump.  It's just not practical to have an artificial cap.  A $500 Rolls is perfectly feasible if you're in the RR or scrap business, but not if you're a regular person.  Hell even a $500 econobox buys something very different here in the rust belt compared to desert areas.  To me this car is more in the spirit of the rules than a pro built $500 Miata with some wicked hidden E36 M3 underneath.

To clarify a common misconception, the $2000 Challenge has no exceptions for cages or blanket safety items. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/1/20 10:59 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you guys with Lemons/Chu(a)mp experience have links to some decent builds?  Not the outrageous and wild stuff like planes or even the Plymford (read every word and loved it).  But a decent starter build on a regular(ish) easily available car so some of us outsiders can see what a reasonable first effort would entail and cost?

 

Yes, we're in the middle of one right now: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1993-volkswagen-fox/

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 11:02 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

YEah, read all of that one thx.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
5/1/20 11:06 a.m.
Klayfish said:
Sonic said:
dean1484 said:
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Dang, I'm losing it.  I could swear I posted this earlier today, but I don't see it.

People are complaining about this build.  Wasn't there someone on here a few years ago who did find a ratty old Rolls for something like $500 who was intending to bring it to the challenge, or possibly lemons.  I think it was three pedal racing.  

Five min later edit. So I found it, it was three pedal mafia, not racing.  Here's the thread

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/3-pedal-mafias-24-hours-of-lemons-rolls-royce-silv/59120/page3/

It died so I don't know if they ever raced it.  Note the lack of hate in that thread.  Oh, and it was seven years ago.  Ouch.

They were crushing cars 7 years ago

That was me and my team.  We left the car completely stock.  It was wonderful, and terrible, at the same time.  We had our fun and sold the car on down the road.  

 

 Our team has run the table from terrible (Rolls, Citroen SM), to wacky (Sea Sprite boat on an S10 chassis that came as high as 20th overall), to actually fast and good (swapped Civic, 3.8 RX7, Cressida) and have many top 10 finishes and fast lap of the race.   The fun is that no matter what you are driving, there is someone to race.  I can assure you that at the pointy end of the field where we are now, the racing is very competitive, but if one of those teams break, we are right there to help give them a part or tool or extra hand.  The community is unlike any other series I have seen.  

All of this exactly.  Yes, I'm likely to agree with Sonic because we're teammates.  However, I was coming in here to literally say the same thing....which is why everyone on our team gets along so well, we're all of the same mind.

I have had the privilege to race something like 30 Lemons events now.  I don't know how many other people in the country (or world for that matter) can lay claim to the things I've gotten to do on a racetrack.  I've raced a true nearly bone stock Rolls Royce, a Citroen SM, a truck with a literal boat body on it.  Those were the "slow" cars.  Built for IOE and each one won it.  The boat was actually faster than it had a right to be.  As Sonic said, it finished as high as 20th, and for years was never "in the way" as it was respectably fast.  Oh, and how many people can say they got to rollerblade around a paddock while being pulled by a boat...just like water skiing on land, LOL.  I've also been on the pointy end of the field, having driven a bunch of different class B and now class A cars.  I'm currently a driver of the Cressida that Sonic mentioned.  It never sets fastest lap of the race, but it's fast enough to be at the top end of the fied, is dead nuts consistent and reliable.  It constantly finishes top 10, and has been as high as 4th overall.  At that end of the field, I can assure you the racing is "real" and is real competitive.  We're not out there for a Sunday drive.  No matter what I was driving, I always found someone to "race" with.  LeMons is also a community.  While we do race and race hard, we're there to have a good time.  But at the end of the day, we don't take ourselves too seriously.  It's great to go to the track and see people you only see a few times a year and enjoy laughs with them.  These friends are the first to help another team out if they need it, even if they are in direct competition.  I suppose either you "get" LeMons or you don't.  I totally get it and am addicted. 

I've also been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to work on the staff of LeMons at a race last year.  I enjoyed it just about as much as being in the race and can tell you the staff at LeMons is just as awesome as the people who race it.  They take the safety of the competitors VERY seriously, but still remember we're all there to have a great time. 

That's exactly what Vintage racing started out to be. A fun weekend for car collectors to drive their cars as they were intended to be driven.  The age limit was in place to keep newer cars from joining and spoiling the fun. 
my first race had a entry fee of $10. And was basically the lunch time event so corner workers could take a break. 
they asked us to either remove or tape over our license plate since so many of us drove our cars. 
we borrowed helmets and driver suits.  Plus fire extinguishers and seat belts.  No roll bars so shoulder harnesses were not allowed. 
 

Toyman01 (Forum Supporter)
Toyman01 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/1/20 11:38 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you guys with Lemons/Chu(a)mp experience have links to some decent builds?  Not the outrageous and wild stuff like planes or even the Plymford (read every word and loved it).  But a decent starter build on a regular(ish) easily available car so some of us outsiders can see what a reasonable first effort would entail and cost?

The S.C.C.A Oldies 2019 Lemons build.

The S.C.C.A. Oldies 2020, The Dirtsons Strike Again. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
5/1/20 1:01 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Do you guys with Lemons/Chu(a)mp experience have links to some decent builds?  Not the outrageous and wild stuff like planes or even the Plymford (read every word and loved it).  But a decent starter build on a regular(ish) easily available car so some of us outsiders can see what a reasonable first effort would entail and cost?

 

 

Here you go https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/my-1994-honda-accord-champcar-build/171906/page1/#post2998884

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