The latest Camaro: too big or just right?-Page 3: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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Oct. 22, 2011 6:11 p.m. Teh E36 M3 HalfDork

SVreX wrote:

AutoXR wrote:

Disappointment in a new mustang that can hold it's own against a new M3 around a track? Huh? What car do you deem worthy?

First off, they didn't run the V6 against the M3. They ran the GT/ 5.0. Big difference, in both suspension and power.

Secondly, I said it had OK power, but is fat and handles porky.

I said it handles like a Cadillac. Cadillacs are pretty fast on the track. They are not firm or fun to drive. They are fat.

Thirdly, I was talking about the driving experience, not a measured track comparison. A stock SVX feels slow too, and is kind of boring to drive, but it's still mighty fast. Sometimes fast isn't so much fun.

I was disappointed. This isn't about what I "deem worthy". Drive one and decide.

But I have spent a lot of time driving original Ponies. They have a great balance of power and agility. This one does not. It has no soul.

I just got out of my brother's 64.5 Mustang, and I can tell you that it is anything but nimble. Cool? Yes. Nimble and well-handling? Not in 1000 years. Power? My 4 door '02 WRX wagon eats it for lunch on road, track, off road, etc. Soul? Hell yes. Not a real comparison between it and a new guy. I was truly impressed with the M3/Mustang comparo. Had me shopping, that's for sure.
Oct. 22, 2011 6:17 p.m. forzav12 Reader

AutoXR wrote:

Disappointment in a new mustang that can hold it's own against a new M3 around a track? Huh? What car do you deem worthy?

You are wasting your time here. This is GRM, where every clapped out econobox lives forever and anything not packing a wheezy four banger is proudly proclaimed, "too big, too heavy and too expensive"

I drove the new Laguna Seca Mustang around Willow Springs Raceway and was stunned by how competent it is. "Hold its own"? Hardly, it drops the M3 like yesterday's news. Apparently I'm not alone in my opinion, as the latest comparo by C&D has the pro driver raving about the Mustang greatness-even preferring its handling over the Lexus LFA! The car flat works and it must be very painful for certain folks to have a domestic ponycar lay waste to all their favorites. Christ, Subes and Evos aren't even in the same galaxy of performance as the Boss. They must scrap it out with the six-banger Mustangs-priceless!

As to the interior comments, the interiors of the ponycars are just fine, they make excellent DDs,while providing great performance. Sure, they can't match the quality of 25 year old, brittle ,Japanese vinyl covered with petrified fries and empty Redbull cans, but the owners don't seem to mind.
Oct. 22, 2011 6:58 p.m. pete240z SuperDork

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

From the driver's seat they are claustrophobic......

Too big? At 6'4" I was going to take one on a test drive. I had the seat angled way into the back to where I would never be able to really drive it. I laughed at how small it was inside. What a joke.
Oct. 22, 2011 7:10 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

Teh E36 M3 wrote:

SVreX wrote:

AutoXR wrote:

Disappointment in a new mustang that can hold it's own against a new M3 around a track? Huh? What car do you deem worthy?

First off, they didn't run the V6 against the M3. They ran the GT/ 5.0. Big difference, in both suspension and power.

Secondly, I said it had OK power, but is fat and handles porky.

I said it handles like a Cadillac. Cadillacs are pretty fast on the track. They are not firm or fun to drive. They are fat.

Thirdly, I was talking about the driving experience, not a measured track comparison. A stock SVX feels slow too, and is kind of boring to drive, but it's still mighty fast. Sometimes fast isn't so much fun.

I was disappointed. This isn't about what I "deem worthy". Drive one and decide.

But I have spent a lot of time driving original Ponies. They have a great balance of power and agility. This one does not. It has no soul.

I just got out of my brother's 64.5 Mustang, and I can tell you that it is anything but nimble. Cool? Yes. Nimble and well-handling? Not in 1000 years. Power? My 4 door '02 WRX wagon eats it for lunch on road, track, off road, etc. Soul? Hell yes. Not a real comparison between it and a new guy. I was truly impressed with the M3/Mustang comparo. Had me shopping, that's for sure.

Come on, now. I never said they were nimble OR well-handling. That would be stupid.

It's 50 year old engineering. Duh.

I said they had a great balance of power and agility. Not too much power, not too much agility.

The way to drive an old Pony is by continuously stepping out the rear and sliding your way around a track.

But, it had a soul, and was incredibly fun to drive. It was also very tossable. It tossed all over the place.

The new one is fat, feels heavy, and I didn't like driving it. Why is that wrong???
Oct. 22, 2011 7:30 p.m. irish44j Dork

forzav12 wrote:

Who really cares about how much heavier the new iron is compared to a bunch of clapped out old econo cars and Miatas? Here is a news flash-new cars are heavy. Many of the cars that folks here get all gaga over(Audis, Benzs, BMWs,etc,etc,etc) are damn porky, as well. Most of today's buyers want all the extra crap and the government requires another load of weight adding safety equipment=heavy. Big surprise, a lot of the usual suspects here don't like domestic offerings. BOT, the new Camaro is a pretty good performance bargain, provides very good performance and distinctive looks. I think its attractive from the 3/4 viewpoint and has a pretty acceptable front view(not a fan of the cheap looking grill, though). The direct rear view is awkward, IMO, as the tail lights size and shape do not integrate particularly well. Is it too big and heavy? Yes, but not excessively so considering today's realities.

It's not about regulations entirely. Plenty of cars in the same general class seem to meet all the same regulations without turning into boats....

Let's take the Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Grand Touring with an automatic tranny, the heaviest model of the Gensis Coupe line. Curb weight 3397 lbs.

Now let's take the Camaro LS 3.6, the lightest model of the line, with a manual tranny. Curb weight 3780lbs.

In terms of engine power/torque, both are pretty similar, and both have similar size V6s, so that should be a push in terms of weight. Let's assume that tranny/drivetrain weights are generally similar. Actually the hyundai has an autotragic, so it probably weighs more. I think it's a fair bet that both cars have similar safety features as well.

But the Camaro weighs almost 400lbs more for a base-model than the Genesis does for a loaded model. And I'm betting the 3.8GT Genesis has MORE amenities and features than the Camaro LS 3.6 does....so it's not all just creature comforts.

GM, where is all that extra weight coming from???
Oct. 22, 2011 7:38 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

BTW- I am of the opinion that the comparison between the Mustang (or any pony) and the M3 is a bit illegitimate.

The M3 is marketed to an upscale audience. It is a luxury performance car, and always has been. It's pricetag is 1.5 - 2x the Ponies.

The Ponies are marketed to the middle class muscle crowd. They are measured in essentially one thing- fun factor. Most of this group can't make a right turn.

Old Ponies were fun. The new ones are not.

I personally prefer nimble and well handling, which means if I am in the same price range I will be shopping for a WRX or an RX-8 or a MINI or maybe an S2000. If I was in a higher price range, I would be shopping for an M3.

If I wanted a muscle car, I'd spend my money on an older one, because the new ones don't have the fun factor. This is mostly a factor of it's size and weight. And soul. I really wouldn't care if it could compete with an M3.

If I wanted a big fat cushy interior, I'd buy a Cadillac or a Lincoln.

So, it's a complete miss for me.
Oct. 22, 2011 9:19 p.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

SVreX wrote:

BTW- I am of the opinion that the comparison between the Mustang (or any pony) and the M3 is a bit illegitimate.

The M3 is marketed to an upscale audience. It is a luxury performance car, and always has been. It's pricetag is 1.5 - 2x the Ponies.

The Ponies are marketed to the middle class muscle crowd. They are measured in essentially one thing- fun factor. Most of this group can't make a right turn.

Old Ponies were fun. The new ones are not.

I personally prefer nimble and well handling, which means if I am in the same price range I will be shopping for a WRX or an RX-8 or a MINI or maybe an S2000. If I was in a higher price range, I would be shopping for an M3.

If I wanted a muscle car, I'd spend my money on an older one, because the new ones don't have the fun factor. This is mostly a factor of it's size and weight. And soul. I really wouldn't care if it could compete with an M3.

If I wanted a big fat cushy interior, I'd buy a Cadillac or a Lincoln.

So, it's a complete miss for me.

^All of this^

That new M3 that Ford is so keen to tell you they marginally whipped at Laguna is also the heaviest M3 ever. A 3700lb M3 is just another reason I keep living in the past. I can't wait until enough of these new heavyweights end up in scrap yards because Ford, Chevy and BMW do still know how to make a V8 motor and my 2100lb E30 needs more POWAH!