Theoretical challenge build - dodge v10?

pres589 wrote: There was a 727 in the early Cummins trucks, '89 to '93, which would need to be "reprogrammed" for a performance application. Transmission seems like a weak spot in this plan. Rebuilding the stock auto probably makes sense if you have that ability.

TunaDad does!

I could go on an on, but he builds transmissions for lots of uses, DD, plows, race cars and everything else. He has some transmissions out there going way too fast. He's amazed at what the G body guys are doing with his TH200-R4s and his own stuff is in his Super Stock car.

I am sure he could build a bulletproof 727.

Though for the challenge you need both a super loose converter and a tight converter. I am not sure how to best make that work, hence the manual being ideal, your foot is the converter.

What about a T56? That's what the Viper had, so there's gotta be a bellhousing out there to mate it to the block. Not saying that's going to be doable for challenge budget or anything, but the parts must exist right?

I would think one of the pluses to 10 cylinders is enough torque to make more than 2-3 gears unnecessary. There's also adapters to hook a Powerglide to almost anything.

I mean, we are talking about an 8.0l motor with 450+ ftlbs of torque. Is a transmission really even necessary?

EDIT: Wall-e beat me by that much.

tuna55 wrote: Though for the challenge you need both a super loose converter and a tight converter. I am not sure how to best make that work, hence the manual being ideal, your foot is the converter.

You can have a super tight converter if you have a transmission controller that aggressively locks the lockup clutch. Plenty of modern cars with automatics don't drive at all like an automatic except when starting from a stop, because they spend 99% of the time with the converter in full lockup.

edizzle89 wrote: the automatics in this generation of Dodge are not known for there robust-ness so that would be something to watch out for.

A few turns on the line pressure screw, a band adjustment and a big cooler will make one last pretty well provided it was healthy to start with.

Don't remove the paint.

Now that we're talking v10s, would the ford be a better choice? As I understand it, the ford is a 5.4 with two more. I have to imagine it would be easier to v10 with ford parts.

mck1117 wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Though for the challenge you need both a super loose converter and a tight converter. I am not sure how to best make that work, hence the manual being ideal, your foot is the converter.

You can have a super tight converter if you have a transmission controller that aggressively locks the lockup clutch. Plenty of modern cars with automatics don't drive at all like an automatic except when starting from a stop, because they spend 99% of the time with the converter in full lockup.

Interesting. I know very very little about torque converters-could you have one with a high stall for drag launches that can lock up below stall speed for the autocross?

In reply to MrJoshua:

No I don't think so. I posed that exact question to tunadad and tuna uncle a while back and the answer was that at full throttle on a car with that much power, it would just drive through the lockup clutch.

So my hopes for a loose/tight converter were dashed

tuna55 wrote: In reply to MrJoshua: No I don't think so. I posed that exact question to tunadad and tuna uncle a while back and the answer was that at full throttle on a car with that much power, it would just drive through the lockup clutch. So my hopes for a loose/tight converter were dashed

Not if it's got a strong enough lockup clutch. But with something very torquey like the V10 in question here, I doubt you'd need more than a 2800 stall converter to get a good compromise for the challenge. And that would still be perfectly usable for autocross, maybe just a little mushy (keep it in a low gear for higher revs and less converter slip and it'll be fine).

mndsm wrote: Now that we're talking v10s, would the ford be a better choice? As I understand it, the ford is a 5.4 with two more. I have to imagine it would be easier to v10 with ford parts.

I thought Ford too, but they didn't send the triton out the door in trucks until a decade after Dodge had V10 trucks on the road (I was surprised to learn that), so it's hard to find a Ford V10 truck in budget. And the Ford is rated at almost the exact same hp as the Dodge, but ten years newer it has less displacement.

They did come in vans 3-4 years before trucks though, so maybe drop a truck bed on the back half of the van frame for a sweet cabover.

Previous Triton V10 discussion.

The v10 is only 4 inches longer than the 5.9 is. Obvious answer is to find something that can swallow a big block and put it in that.

V10 C body race car.

In reply to mndsm:

No, simply because the Dodge sounds so much better than the Ford.

DrBoost wrote: Don't remove the paint.

Not much choice. Dodges of that era have self removing paint. He has to finish what the factory started.

As far as building a dodge pickup like the op describes, i get that, and i bet it could be done on the cheap.

As to swapping one, i think a chevy big block would be better in every way. Google says its about 150 pounds lighter. The trans options are better. Aftermarket support is in a different universe.

I could see the dodge v10 used in something like my old 54 packard because it would be different, but if i was concerned in making power i would go bbc.

gearheadmb wrote: As far as building a dodge pickup like the op describes, i get that, and i bet it could be done on the cheap. As to swapping one, i think a chevy big block would be better in every way. Google says its about 150 pounds lighter. The trans options are better. Aftermarket support is in a different universe. I could see the dodge v10 used in something like my old 54 packard because it would be different, but if i was concerned in making power i would go bbc.

Wow! Nail meet coffin. The BBC is 150 lighter than the Dodge truck V10!?

"BBC in Dodge"

Reeeeee

If big blocks are the answer the new question is how cheap can you do a 451 stroker with a 400 mopar? 400 is almost 200 pounds lighter from my addled remembering of weights

Or you could just junkyard turbo a 360 since it's even lighter.

In reply to tuna55:

Tight enough converter clutches exist to hold quite a bit of torque. I know that the Mercedes 7G-Tronic box is almost always at full lock, even at WoT. It's used on engines that make as much as about 600lb-ft, so torque converters do certainly exist that can handle it.

There are, of course, other ways to ignore weight.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/xvj-RnIkczk

In reply to tuna55:

I wonder if Viper aluminum heads would help drop that weight. Not that they would be a cheap alternative, but since we're pie in the sky dreaming....

In reply to Stefan:

I don't think they bolt on actually

mck1117 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Tight enough converter clutches exist to hold quite a bit of torque. I know that the Mercedes 7G-Tronic box is almost always at full lock, even at WoT. It's used on engines that make as much as about 600lb-ft, so torque converters do certainly exist that can handle it.

The exact question posed was more like: If I bought this TH-350c could I use the lockup clutch on a 4500 RPM stall converter to pretend it's a normal converter sometimes?

And the answer is no. That is not to say that it cannot be done with modification to the converter, or that other options exist, but it seems that lockup clutches on a typical converter is not strong enough.

In reply to edizzle89:

The main issue with them is the "5th gear nut" that likes to back off and make a mess of things. Apparently easier to do a preventive fix on 2WD trucks than 4WD when you don't have a 300 lb. transfer case in the way. Like most things in a modern Chrysler - generally not bad, but with one annoying and potentially fatal flaw...

Bearing in mind, the transmission alone weighs about half as much as an entire Miata... It's a big hunk of metal.

The question is, can you find a rat motor pickup for the price of a V10?