OK, I'm 63 years old and turning into "that grumpy old guy". Why does everything in the car have to be run by the berkleying computer. I mean ,my door latch is programmed so I have to pull it twice to get out of the car. If the computer didn't auto lock the doors in the first place I wouldn't have to do that. Lucky for me I have manual transmission vehicles because those electronic shifters for automatics would drive me nuts. The cable shifted auto trans in my wife's Scion works just fine.
Things were better before all the improvements. 
chiodos wrote: In reply to rslifkin: You sound like me, the newest car I've owned was a 2001 vw and I sold it because it was too frivolous for me, I now daily a car that is 6 years older than me. Another thing, cars these days are too quiet! So I can kinda understand when people don't know if it's running or not but also, ever notice how these days when the traffic light turns green people are real slow to go? I also theorize that to because modern cars are so quieter people don't hear other cars leaving (like two or three ahead) and take longer. That and cell phone distraction but I swear it's because everyone needs straight pipes!
Count me among the "grumpy young guys" crowd as well. Newest I've had is a 98 and I'm not sure that I could see myself going much newer than that anytime soon.
My first car had a badly-swapped automatic with a floor shifter. For the life of me, I don't know why, but I never added the shifter button or the gear labels. I just had a stick coming out of a hole with a tiny tab to depress on the top. I had to guess every time. I got it wrong once or twice, one time throwing it into reverse at 30 mph.
I guess everything I drive seems way better than that. or maybe I had to get good at it, so it doesn't matter now.
These were some of the reasons given to me by a powertrain engineer. Electronic shifters have distinct advantages as far as interior packaging and reduced cost. With electronic you can put the shifter anywhere and create more cabin room. They take up less space inside the console or dash allowing other modules or cubbie holes to be added. They have fewer parts and fewer parts mean less money. They are easier to use across model lines without modification. Some things like center consoles can be used globally where as before there might be a left hand and right hand drive version. You may see a reduction in NVH as there is no longer a cable directly attached to the transmission running inside the car. Market research supports the move.
If the design makes sense I dont see an issue with electronic shifters.
Things will always evolve. Im sure the stoneage GRM guys thought steel tools were overly complicated with their forging process when you could just tie a rock to a stick.
The people that buy new cars love gadgets and doohickeys. They will base a purchase off if a car has heated side mirrors or internet for their kids. Even if they don't understand the bells and whistles they want them. Every day I deal with owners that dont understand what they bought ("My car feels sluggish in ECO mode and I demand you buy it back!!!!)
Manufacturers will never keep making the same car like the original Beetle for 50 years because the market wont support it and the ever changing government regulations won't allow it.
Stock up on carburetors because the ride is just going to get faster!
Now get off my lawn!
I'll agree that electronic shifters are fine. They just have to be designed well. Push buttons, rotary knob with detents or an electronic version of a standard PRNDL floor shifter are all fine. But the weird stick that springs back to center things are just not intuitive.
rslifkin wrote: But the weird stick that springs back to center things are just not intuitive.
I have a good friend named, uhhh, "Lugdug"... that may have been in a meeting where everybody agreed that style of shifter sucked but the senior manager loved it.
This would be a better world if people would stop dreaming up completely new ways to do the same old E36 M3.
When they invent flying Jetson cars, I will be happy to learn a new set of controls. But if it's still got four wheels and is "grounded to the ground," then ferchrissakes, give me a column-mounted PRNDL, a console-mounted PRNDL, or best of all, a manual gearshift and a clutch pedal.
One thing is for sure, if you're not banging through the gears manually, a column or dash mounted shifter makes way more sense from a packaging perspective.
In reply to logdog:
Here's the thing though, do buyers actually love the gadgets and BS, or do they just want them because the marketers tell them they do and the Joneses up the street have them all in their fully loaded whatevermobile? I'd bet the percentage of buyers who are actually aware most of those gadgets even exist on their car for more than the first week they own it, let alone can actually figure out how to use them, is relatively insignificant.
Its a societal problem, needing to have the latest/greatest/best without any consideration given to the actual utility of the gadgets we pay for. People gladly pay hundreds of dollars for the latest iPhone every time a new one comes out, but does it really do anything that much better than the old one? We're a free market society, so people are and should be free to buy whatever junk their heart desires, I just sincerely question whether they actually want it or whether its just pushed on them by the producers of said junk because its advantageous to their share price. I guess my point is that somehow the paradigm where we as consumers dictate through our demand what we want has somehow flipped and now the manufacturers dictate to us what we are expected to buy.
Now YOU get off MY lawn
A while ago my dad got a rental Kia SUV while his X-trail was getting repaired. He calls me and says the car is revving high when he tries to drive it. At first I think maybe it has a CVT and he's not used to it...then I ask if it has a regular auto-like shifter. He says yes. Then I ask if there's a plus and minus near there. He says yes. I tell him to move the shifter away from the plus and minus...a "1" on the dash changes to "D" and it drives "normally."
My mom recently bought a used BMW 1-series with the same kind of gearbox and didn't notice the existence of "manual mode" until I pointed it out. She's never going to use it.
Type Q wrote: My wife's Prius has Toyota's unconventional shifter that springs back to a center point after you select a gear. You have to press a separate button to get park. I have, on couple of occasions, been in the wrong gear and started to go backward when I intended to forward. We both adopted the habit of engaging the parking brake as soon we are stopped where we intend to be.
And they are especially fun for trying to figure out if the car is really and truly turned off, as opposed to just not running. My mother has one and has had lots of fun with valet parking of it.
I'm only 35 years old so I'm not old enough to qualify as a full fledged "old crumudgeon" yet, but I don't like stuff like this. There's a lot to be said for the tactile feedback and the solid "clunk" of mechanical interfaces like a parking brake or a manual trans shifter. Even the old gated automatics at least give you a better idea of what gear you are selecting. Yes you can run all kinds of systems by wire now, but it feels like something is missing.
The worst one I've seen recently is the new Chrysler 200 "dial shifter".
Seriously? How many people get into one of these as a rental car and end up trying to shift gears thinking they are turning up the radio or the heat because they fumble for the knob without looking and turn this?
Furious_E wrote: In reply to logdog: Here's the thing though, do buyers actually love the gadgets and BS, or do they just want them because the marketers tell them they do and the Joneses up the street have them all in their fully loaded whatevermobile? I'd bet the percentage of buyers who are actually aware most of those gadgets even exist on their car for more than the first week they own it, let alone can actually figure out how to use them, is relatively insignificant. Its a societal problem, needing to have the latest/greatest/best without any consideration given to the actual utility of the gadgets we pay for. People gladly pay hundreds of dollars for the latest iPhone every time a new one comes out, but does it really do anything that much better than the old one? We're a free market society, so people are and should be free to buy whatever junk their heart desires, I just sincerely question whether they actually want it or whether its just pushed on them by the producers of said junk because its advantageous to their share price. I guess my point is that somehow the paradigm where we as consumers dictate through our demand what we want has somehow flipped and now the manufacturers dictate to us what we are expected to buy. Now YOU get off MY lawn
Get out of my head!
Manual transmissions for all!!!
While I agree those aren't the best shifter design, some things never change - mostly people.
I have an uncle that had a beautiful 66 fastback Mustang back in the day, black with gold rally stripes in a nice Hertz imitation. Had a hot 351 crammed in it with a 4 speed. He got out of the car at a friends house one day and was half way across the yard when the Mustang wrapped itself nicely around the big oak at the bottom of the hill. Having a purely mechanical transmission with no safety interlock at all didn't prevent him from being an idiot and not making sure it was right before he got out of the car.
rslifkin wrote: But the weird stick that springs back to center things are just not intuitive.
Well, maybe if you're just not used to them. Motorcycles seem to have no problem with that kind of shifter. Same with half of the performance automatic shifters on the market, or even bicycle shifters.
Knurled wrote:rslifkin wrote: But the weird stick that springs back to center things are just not intuitive.Well, maybe if you're just not used to them. Motorcycles seem to have no problem with that kind of shifter. Same with half of the performance automatic shifters on the market, or even bicycle shifters.
Many of those designs are just an up/down thing though. For that, it's fine. Tap one way to go up, one way to go down. But they way they're being implemented in cars is a totally different story. If it only had 2 positions other than the center one and you just clicked through the PRNDL sequence 1 step at a time, it would be more intuitive (although still awkward to use, as it would take 3 clicks to get from Park to Drive).
M2Pilot wrote:chiodos wrote: Maybe dodge just wants to recreate the old push button dash shifter ( it was Chrysler who had that right?)Yep, it was Chrysler. IIRC American Motors had it too in the early 60s.
You rang?
logdog wrote: I have a good friend named, uhhh, "Lugdug"...
This made me LOL.
tuna55 wrote: One thing is for sure, if you're not banging through the gears manually, a column or dash mounted shifter makes way more sense from a packaging perspective.
But column shifters are for old people. I want my automatic Corolla to be sporty and grounded to the ground.
The new suv that Matthew McConaghuey drives in the Lincoln commercial has the push button transmission on the dash. How lazy is this? Mrs DX and I drove a new Mazda 6 on Saturday at the Philly Auto Show and it the e-brake was a little lever in the middle of the dash. wtf?? 
92dxman wrote: The new suv that Matthew McConaghuey drives in the Lincoln commercial has the push button transmission on the dash. How lazy is this? Mrs DX and I drove a new Mazda 6 on Saturday at the Philly Auto Show and it the e-brake was a little lever in the middle of the dash. wtf??
Features found on high end luxury cars are finding their way down to the base models. My FIL's BMW E38 7-series has the start/stop button, push buttons for the parking brake and essentially a push button for the automatic.
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Features found on high end luxury cars are finding their way down to the base models. My FIL's BMW E38 7-series has the start/stop button, push buttons for the parking brake and essentially a push button for the automatic.
You sure it's an E38 and not an E65? Every E38 I've seen had a standard shifter and no push botton start.
"gear requested by the driver is transmitted from the sifter via the CAN Bust to the Transmission Control Module which makes the requested shift." That website needs a proof reader. I would love to get my hands on some busty CANS!
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