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Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/2/18 11:21 a.m.
GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
1/2/18 11:25 a.m.
Trackmouse said:

Now, how do we replicate this on a chump/champ car? 

Exact same stuff, just replace the exotic materials like CF and titanium with more mundane substitues, like aluminum sheeting, alumalite, fiberglass, and even wood. Aero parts can be had quite cheap, it's the power to drive them that costs money.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/2/18 11:32 a.m.

Won't help all that much with 200TW tires, except destroy them more quickly and if you don't know how to drive with aero help or how to tune it, you could make things worse, not better.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/2/18 11:41 a.m.

If you approach aero with that attitude, you're going to lose to the guys who use it.

My COT wing - designed for sustained speeds over 100 mph - got me something like 1-2 seconds/lap on a track that averages under 50 mph per lap. Some DIY canards made a noticeable difference with front end grip on a before/after test, and you can tell when the splitter isn't installed. If you do it right, you can decrease drag AND increase downforce.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
1/2/18 11:52 a.m.
Stefan said:

Won't help all that much with 200TW tires, except destroy them more quickly and if you don't know how to drive with aero help or how to tune it, you could make things worse, not better.

Tell that to the fast teams in Champcar...  Like Biohazard, Team GWR, etc...

Full under trays, diffusers, wings, splitters...  Their corner speed is crazy and since the tires aren't sliding as much, the wear is better in most cases.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/2/18 11:57 a.m.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, but I was trying to get Mr. Excited about the latest shiny thing to approach this with a bit more forethought.  I guess I should have expounded a bit.

Of course it CAN work and it may even help even with the fairly hard tires that Cheap endurance cars have to run, but you have to be prepared to deal with the possible issues of faster tire degradation and other issues like overloading the suspension components among many others.

 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
1/2/18 12:08 p.m.

Sure, just like everything else with a racecar, it needs to be approached scientifically with testing.  We are in the midst of adding a spoiler on teh back of our car to help eliminate drag and help with high speed rear stability.  So far, the lap times are faster!

 

For the record, I didn't put words in your mouth in any way. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/2/18 12:17 p.m.
Stefan said:

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, but I was trying to get Mr. Excited about the latest shiny thing to approach this with a bit more forethought.  I guess I should have expounded a bit.

Of course it CAN work and it may even help even with the fairly hard tires that Cheap endurance cars have to run, but you have to be prepared to deal with the possible issues of faster tire degradation and other issues like overloading the suspension components among many others.

 

Anyone playing with serious aero understands this. In the lastest Time Attack out at Buttonwillow, some of the Miata guys were running as much 1100lb front springs to deal with the aero load. 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/2/18 12:29 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Anyone?  One would hope so, but having been around Cheap Endurance cars and their teams, many have a hard time getting the car running and tested prior to showing up for tech.

In reply to wvumtnbkr:

I didn't say you did.  I was replying to Keith, you replied before I finished my reply.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/2/18 12:30 p.m.

You win contrarian. Geez.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/2/18 12:48 p.m.

If you are the sort of racer that can barely get your car running, then it's probably a good idea to minimize any further experimentation. Those racers are going to break and lose no matter what. Let's just assume that none of them are amongst us wink

At the sharper end of the pack, DIY aero is definitely something that can be done well and effectively.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA Dork
1/2/18 1:13 p.m.

My current aero project might give you ideas. I wouldn't start off trying to emulate Andrews infinity wing concept. Stick to basics and keep heat sources in mind. Thread on my aero mods http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f360/very-old-bird-gets-updated-aero-8905/

Splitter/under tray/ rear diffuser mock up in pics below.

[URL=http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/The%2014%20Car%20Performance%20Therapy/002_zpsfhida09i.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/The%2014%20Car%20Performance%20Therapy%20part%202/20170923_182200_zpskioa0kdi.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/The%2014%20Car%20Performance%20Therapy%20part%202/20170923_181642_zpsl6iwjw2a.jpg.html][/URL]

Jaynen
Jaynen SuperDork
1/2/18 1:25 p.m.

There is a huge thread over on miata turbo about DIY aero. Also Emilio from 949 showed off their front splitter they built and broke they won with recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEKpK8up3QQ&t=734s

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/2/18 1:41 p.m.

In reply to NOT A TA :

Finally, a reply that doesn’t assume I’m an idiot.

For others: Stop the condescending attitude please, rather unwelcome, makes you look bad, and starts fires that don’t extinguish. All for the detriment of this forum. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/2/18 1:59 p.m.

If you don't like the tone of this thread, you're really not going to enjoy Miataturbo!

goingnowherefast
goingnowherefast New Reader
1/2/18 2:38 p.m.

Yeah MT.net is a brutal brutal place and I love it so. 

 

I'm participating in Time Attack this year in mostly street classes. In my opinion, the three best aero mods are: 

 

1. Plywood/alumalite splitter: $50-$200 from home Depot/sign shops

2. Air dam: $15 ABS plastic. 

3. 2D or 3D wing with custom endplates and aluminum mounts. $500-$2000

 

A well designed airdam + splitter can increase downforce AND decrease drag if you have tire spats. In my CFD tests, the tires create a TON of drag and anything that washes the air around that makes a huge benefit. 

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
1/2/18 2:53 p.m.

In reply to goingnowherefast :

Really good to know! Thanks!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/2/18 2:57 p.m.

I don't like generic 3D wings, I'd rather get a good 2D unit and hang it up in clean air unless that's disallowed by the rules. A spoiler can give you a better value for money than a real wing if your budget doesn't go that far - I think the biggest benefit is confidence under braking as the center of pressure gets moved back.

Definitely shield the tires, tires are really dirty.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
1/2/18 3:14 p.m.

There are some pretty good threads on teh Champcar forum as well.  Team GWR has taken pictures and explained most of what they have done.

Pic of our car with airdam and spoiler on the back.  We just had the front of the car jacked up.  It isn't normally that high!  Also, we curved teh back part of the front fenders, put some venting in the hood that "attaches" to the airdam.  We also got rid of the stock mirrors and added roll cage mount mirrors. 

goingnowherefast
goingnowherefast New Reader
1/2/18 3:58 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Agreed. Realistically, one can make a decent spoiler with a slab of lexan and 3 turnbuckles from the store for probably $100 total. (I've ran the Blackbird one and liked it). I think the appeal of 3D wings (mostly talking APR) is that they have easy bolt on wings designed to fit some popular cars (miata, s2000, Mustangs etc.). I'm with ya, from a technical prospective, a decent 2D wing is superior. (I run the singular setup now).

That was what really blew my mind when I was doing CFD stuff. How much drag the wheels are tires create, especially since now even 15x10's and bigger are becoming a thing in the Miata world. 

 

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Nice! Cheap and simple. A good air dam and spoiler can be made for less than $100. Win win

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
1/2/18 5:01 p.m.

Wings and things are cool but just smoothing out the car alone can pay dividends. The blackbird fabworks cars are monster fast for the power they put down with minimal crazy wings. 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
1/2/18 5:08 p.m.
wearymicrobe said:

Wings and things are cool but just smoothing out the car alone can pay dividends. The blackbird fabworks cars are monster fast for the power they put down with minimal crazy wings. 

That smoothing kinda incorporates an airdam and a spoiler.  Both can decrease drag as well.

Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
1/2/18 5:54 p.m.

So what's the theory behind the returns, channeling the air off the end of the dam back into the car?

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/2/18 6:01 p.m.

With an aerofoil cross section? That's weird.

Ignoring the aerofoil for the time being, I'm guessing it's a crude kick to give a chunk of downforce and maybe fire up some vortices to run down the side of the car.  I don't think they're so much channeling air back into the car as they are perpendicular to the local airflow.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA Dork
1/2/18 6:26 p.m.
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