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Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
1/3/18 12:14 a.m.
NOT A TA said:

Infinity wing explanation from Andrew at 2017 WTAC in Aus.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=X8BufOqfZlE

That was illuminating but inadvertently humorous, as while he explains all this high-tech engineering stuff, in the background there is two-to-four guys struggling to cut a piece of pipe with...a hacksaw.   

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/3/18 7:29 a.m.
wearymicrobe said:

Wings and things are cool but just smoothing out the car alone can pay dividends. The blackbird fabworks cars are monster fast for the power they put down with minimal crazy wings. 

You should see what he's done to the car now.

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 8:00 a.m.

I talked to him at Autoclub Speedway and looked over his car closely. There's obviously a tremendous amount of research and testing that's gone into it and if I ran a coupe I'd have paid more attention. Running a Seven-type car though really limits improvements...

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/3/18 8:03 a.m.
z31maniac said:
wearymicrobe said:

Wings and things are cool but just smoothing out the car alone can pay dividends. The blackbird fabworks cars are monster fast for the power they put down with minimal crazy wings. 

You should see what he's done to the car now.

And Creampuff is also the more mild of their cars. Morpheus is absolutely mental, with the longtail conversion, DRS, a wing and soon a Ferrari 360 Modena V8 set back 12" in the chassis with a sequential gearbox. Moti is a god.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/3/18 8:08 a.m.

So you've seen all the weight reduction, lowered nose, etc? 

I won't call a car mental that isn't complete yet. :)

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/3/18 8:13 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I mean, even before he started on this iteration, it was pretty wild. He set blistering lap times with only 130hp.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/3/18 8:31 a.m.
wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
1/3/18 10:52 a.m.
NickD said:
z31maniac said:
wearymicrobe said:

Wings and things are cool but just smoothing out the car alone can pay dividends. The blackbird fabworks cars are monster fast for the power they put down with minimal crazy wings. 

You should see what he's done to the car now.

And Creampuff is also the more mild of their cars. Morpheus is absolutely mental, with the longtail conversion, DRS, a wing and soon a Ferrari 360 Modena V8 set back 12" in the chassis with a sequential gearbox. Moti is a god.

I know I almost bought creampuff from them a while back before I bought the Race Miata. 

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
1/3/18 11:35 a.m.
Trackmouse said:

Now, how do we replicate this on a chump/champ car? 

Smash a big piece of plywood into two or more pieces, and throw them into the grass next to the track.

jj
jj HalfDork
1/3/18 12:26 p.m.

Wait.  So this is valuable at low speeds?  My local autocrosses use a test track with massively long 50mph sweepers.  Speeds usually range from lows of 30mph up to 75 mph.  Will aero benefit at these speeds?  I have beater mustang that needs help.  When the fast cars are there Im about 2 seconds off the pace.  My power is low though at about 210 whp.

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/3/18 12:36 p.m.
jj said:

Wait.  So this is valuable at low speeds?  My local autocrosses use a test track with massively long 50mph sweepers.  Speeds usually range from lows of 30mph up to 75 mph.  Will aero benefit at these speeds?  I have beater mustang that needs help.  When the fast cars are there Im about 2 seconds off the pace.  My power is low though at about 210 whp.

Ever seen a C/SP Miata? They make less than 200hp and use a front air dam, big splitter, large rear ducktail. It'll work at lower speeds, you just have to either go larger or use a more aggressive angle of attack (autocross typically has rules on spoiler and splitter sizes)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/3/18 12:54 p.m.

Even if it only works at speeds of 50 mph, you'll still benefit because of the higher speeds on that sweeper. That's exactly what I saw on my first wing testing, my cornering speeds on a long sweeper went up considerably.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead HalfDork
1/3/18 1:50 p.m.
NOT A TA said:

Infinity wing explanation from Andrew at 2017 WTAC in Aus.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=X8BufOqfZlE

so, they made a slotted winglet?  cool... call me when they move to spiroids:

wink

I'll note that the comedy stretches further, with the comment "drag is arbitrarily defined", and "these elements have zero drag penalty... just opposed lateral forces"... that's tantamount to "free energy".

The reality is the slot is important because it allows the high AoA of the "flapped element create a stronger circulation... and seems designed to create a vortex further out from the tire compared to the more common "endplate" variety.  I haven't read GTA's aero rules, but I suspect they're limited to two elements single surface in this region, and they allude to a certain "box" outside the fender to extend the splitter into.

I'll have to go back and watch the OP vids now

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/3/18 2:08 p.m.

Yeah, the opposed lateral forces comment was a bit of a laugh.

The increased downforce on the inside end under yaw makes a bit of sense, though.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead HalfDork
1/3/18 2:45 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The increased downforce on the inside end under yaw makes a bit of sense, though.

I think that's only true if you add on "compared to other splitter designs".  I think that statement is implied in basically every claim the make.

It's not that the inside element is making more lift than the outside one (which should have a higher airspeed, since the outside wheel is traveling faster)... it's that the inside element (imho, thanks to the slot) is making a higher fraction of the outboard element compared to other designs... although, thinking that over right now, I wonder if that would be true for a crosswind coming from the side of inside of the turn?  Still, is this claim true... {shrug} maybe?  Hard to tell without datas... and I suspect that some of the more important knock-on effects, further down the length of the car, of this design are not actually being discussed.  I bet there's a way to achieve most of the same gains with a simpler to construct setup... although, I don't have a means to prove that statement.

general statement I couldn't write before:
The weirdness of Time Attack aero is really about the "single fastest lap" aspect, and the fact that these series are relatively new, are based around production bodies, and have a significantly shorter "tail of regulations" which is giving the designers more latitude, and more volume to exercise that latitude.  F1 and LeMans, after all, are dragging along aero tweaks that go back to the '60's in some ways.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead HalfDork
1/3/18 8:24 p.m.

so, in considering the original:
"How do we apply this to Chump/Champ car"? question, I went looking for rules... and other than 10 points each for a splitter and a wing... and the associated material 'points costs'... I couldn't find anything.  Am I missing something?

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
1/3/18 8:40 p.m.

I had some CFD done on my car by these guys https://jkfaero.com/ , it was very helpful

collinskl1
collinskl1 Reader
1/3/18 9:13 p.m.
sleepyhead said:

so, in considering the original:
"How do we apply this to Chump/Champ car"? question, I went looking for rules... and other than 10 points each for a splitter and a wing... and the associated material 'points costs'... I couldn't find anything.  Am I missing something?

As I understand the rules as they are currently written, it's 10 points per device (wing, splitter, diffuse, undertray)... materials are free excluding carbon fiber which isn't allowed. Because reasons. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
1/3/18 9:39 p.m.
collinskl1 said:

 materials are free excluding carbon fiber which isn't allowed. Because reasons. 

Is there a non-cheating way to put CF parts on a Chump/Champ car considering the budget rules? cheeky

Tom1200
Tom1200 HalfDork
1/4/18 12:35 a.m.

I can't remember where I read it but the air dam / spoiler package on the late 70s Camaro / Trans Am made something like 300lbs of down force at around 50-60 mph.

Our D-sports racer had big strip of hard rubber on the leading edge of the air dam splitter that once you got on the brakes it completely sealed off the underside of the car. The split second after you got on the brakes you could bury the brake pedal; the car pulled a shade over 3 Gs on the brakes.  

There's a reason why even things like simple air dams in many sedan classes are so,tightly controlled. 

I really dig the aero updates that make a Miata resemble a Targa Florio Porsche 908.

collinskl1
collinskl1 Reader
1/4/18 6:24 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:
collinskl1 said:

 materials are free excluding carbon fiber which isn't allowed. Because reasons. 

Is there a non-cheating way to put CF parts on a Chump/Champ car considering the budget rules? cheeky

Chump/Champ went away from a dollar/budget based system to a points based system a few years ago. Rather than having to track down a $500 example of a car, now cars are given a point value based on performance. The same is true of modifications. Dollars don't matter in general - some components are held to within twice the OE replacement cost. So for 10 points, you can make a splitter out of whatever you want as long as it isn't carbon fiber.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead HalfDork
1/4/18 8:21 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:
collinskl1 said:

 materials are free excluding carbon fiber which isn't allowed. Because reasons. 

Is there a non-cheating way to put CF parts on a Chump/Champ car considering the budget rules? cheeky

doesn't sound like it.  but there are easy ways to add carbon that would be difficult to detect... not that I'm advocating that... the benefit would probably not be worth it, imho

I find these rules interesting, since... essentially... the only thing to limit the size/complexity of your devices is the fear of losing them through contact with another car... and the ability to support the structure required for the elements.

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