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  • oldsaw

    Nov. 4, 2009 11:20 a.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    The 2010 season has the makings of a Ferrari rout. They took the Brawn approach, abandoned the 2009 season and started deveolping next year's car by mid-season.

    McLaren will likely be the strongest opponent, again. BrawnGP will have a good car, but does it have the funding and resources to remain on top? Red Bull has the best designer, but can the team gain the needed consistency to stay on top?

    The rest of the current teams will be mid-packers and the new teams will occupy the bottom end of the grid.

    But, with the new rules package it will be interesting to watch and see who has the best package and how the drivers adapt their styles to address tire maintenance and no refueling stops.

  • carguy123

    Nov. 4, 2009 11:29 a.m. carguy123 Dork

    But it will also be more of a cookie cutter, COT feel to next year's season. Boring!

    I want things to be interesting ON the track not have to rely upon the back story as Nascrap does. Is anyone sure F1 hasn't been bought by Nascar?

  • Shaun

    Nov. 4, 2009 11:31 a.m. Shaun Reader

    When I was a teen I attended couple races at Long Beach. My dad bought tickets at the end of the long strait that fed into a hairpin. The 6 wheeled Elf's were running one of the years.. The racing was fantastic, there was passing, passing all through the pack and generally at least a pass per lap. This was pre ABS and gigantic down force, I could see the "good year" font on the tires rotating somewhere between the speed of the chassis and the ground and the cars slithered about for a good line. There was one three abreast 180 to 30 stopping contest that mattered at one race. It was incredible.

    Lessen down force until the following cars will not over heat and become unglued if they get close. Limit engine size so that cars cant go over whatever speed is determined to be safe enough. I cant see basing engines or transmissions on production stuff becuase of the use of said structurally, or moving away from tubs. I Like no fuel stops, intense lean burn flame front R&D would benefit 4 cycle technology and create more performance differential and (hopefully), drama. Please retire Bernie.

  • NYG95GA

    Nov. 4, 2009 12:08 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

    The shame about Toyota's leaving is that they have made a huge investment in F1 since 2002 (reputedly only Ferrari spent more), and only recently have they seen any decent results. It seems a bad time for them to bail out, just when they were starting to see fruits from their work.

  • Nov. 4, 2009 12:22 p.m. ggarrard New Reader

    Toyota leaving the club is a purely financial decision based on where can they save the most money (i.e - what has provided the least Return On Investment to date).

    And I expect that someone will "buy" Toyota's assets (includng their F1 membership card) in order to join the club...much as BrawnGP did.

    I'll watch next year provided it doesn't become a run-away show as it had with Ferrari and Schumacher in recent years.

    GWG

  • nderwater

    Nov. 4, 2009 12:25 p.m. nderwater Reader

    Toyota has suggested that they're not selling their F1 team assets, but that they will be repurposed for other racing efforts.

  • Adrian_Thompson

    Nov. 4, 2009 12:45 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    The plot thickens

    'FIA seeks legal review of Toyota's F1 exit'

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-11-04-2074940473_x.htm

    Unreal, Toyota can't afford to play so the FIA is going to check it will seek "urgent clarification" as to the team's "legal position" in the F1 championship.

    Yup, kick em while their down, way to go FIA

  • Keith

    Nov. 4, 2009 1:08 p.m. Keith PowerDork

    I'd like to see Toyota back in WRC. Far more exciting than watching cars go around the same 12 corners over and over!

  • GameboyRMH

    Nov. 4, 2009 1:26 p.m. GameboyRMH UltraDork

    z31maniac wrote:

    Money cap, no cap on technology.

    That's the way I'd like to see it.

    That would seem the most straightforward method, but imagine LeMons with a bunch of corporate interests heavily involved. It would be the greatest cheatfest in the history of cheating.

  • carguy123

    Nov. 4, 2009 1:34 p.m. carguy123 Dork

    Adrian_Thompson wrote:

    The plot thickens

    'FIA seeks legal review of Toyota's F1 exit'

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-11-04-2074940473_x.htm

    WHAT A CROCK! Quite a lot of self serving justification to help brow beat the other teams.

    Honda pulls out and there's hardly a comment from the FIA.

    BMW pulls out and they go "shucky darn" but now that Toyota's joined the growing tide it's "WAIT! WE'VE GOT TO DO SOME DAMAGE CONTROL HERE!"

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 4, 2009 1:51 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    Adrian_Thompson wrote:

    The plot thickens

    'FIA seeks legal review of Toyota's F1 exit'

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-11-04-2074940473_x.htm

    Unreal, Toyota can't afford to play so the FIA is going to check it will seek "urgent clarification" as to the team's "legal position" in the F1 championship.

    Yup, kick em while their down, way to go FIA

    Actually, Toyota signed a document that involved paying the FIA to participate in F1 for at least the next year. The company is still legally bound to that financial agreement.

    The financial burden is a perfectly good reason to quit, but the company should NEVER had made the committment to begin with.

    The sad part is that Toyota essentially guaranteed to participate next year (and beyond) and reneged. With the Japanese culture so heavily based on "honor", Toyota has embarrased and shamed itself.

    The FIA is completely justified in it's actions.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 4, 2009 1:59 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    carguy123 wrote:

    Adrian_Thompson wrote:

    The plot thickens

    'FIA seeks legal review of Toyota's F1 exit'

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-11-04-2074940473_x.htm

    WHAT A CROCK! Quite a lot of self serving justification to help brow beat the other teams.

    Honda pulls out and there's hardly a comment from the FIA.

    BMW pulls out and they go "shucky darn" but now that Toyota's joined the growing tide it's "WAIT! WE'VE GOT TO DO SOME DAMAGE CONTROL HERE!"

    Get a grip!

    Neither Honda nor BMW made the committment to race in 2010 or beyond. Toyota did and is now defaulting on a contract that never had the names Honda or BMW on it.

    The FIA has every right to pursue this further.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 4, 2009 2:06 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    Keith wrote:

    I'd like to see Toyota back in WRC. Far more exciting than watching cars go around the same 12 corners over and over!

    Toyota was caught cheating and was banned from WRC. They lobbied against reduced budgets in F1 and then quit because it costs too much.

    Toyota will compete in another series where it can find another way to further tarnish its' reputation.

  • Keith

    Nov. 4, 2009 3:08 p.m. Keith PowerDork

    Toyota was caught cheating in 1995 and banned for 12 months from the WRC. They then returned in 1997 and won the constructor's title in 1999. I think they withdrew from the series voluntarily a year or two later.

  • ReverendDexter

    Nov. 4, 2009 3:20 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

    Keith wrote:

    I'd like to see Toyota back in WRC. Far more exciting than watching cars go around the same 12 corners over and over!

    Me too - that would involve them making another AllTrac. Of course, that's the very reason I'm pretty sure they won't do it. When it comes to Toyota and "driving excitement" (sorry Pontiac), I'll believe it when I can go down to the showroom and take it for a test drive (I'm looking at you, FT86).

  • Shaun

    Nov. 4, 2009 3:44 p.m. Shaun Reader

    oldsaw wrote:

    carguy123 wrote:

    Adrian_Thompson wrote:

    The plot thickens

    'FIA seeks legal review of Toyota's F1 exit'

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/2009-11-04-2074940473_x.htm

    WHAT A CROCK! Quite a lot of self serving justification to help brow beat the other teams.

    Honda pulls out and there's hardly a comment from the FIA.

    BMW pulls out and they go "shucky darn" but now that Toyota's joined the growing tide it's "WAIT! WE'VE GOT TO DO SOME DAMAGE CONTROL HERE!"

    Get a grip!

    Neither Honda nor BMW made the committment to race in 2010 or beyond. Toyota did and is now defaulting on a contract that never had the names Honda or BMW on it.

    The FIA has every right to pursue this further.

    Where did you find the contract? Please post a link.

  • Adrian_Thompson

    Nov. 4, 2009 3:55 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    Contract or not there is the reality of the current global economy and state of the auto industry. I am no lover of Toyota, the opposite in fact, just check my sig and numerous posts on what utter total doo doo that Toyota have turned out for the last 15 years, but come on, the company is hurting, don't kick them when their down. They may have said they were signing up for the next x years and probably meant it at the time. But times change fast these days.

  • oldeskewltoy

    Nov. 4, 2009 4:35 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

    Everyone has an opinion......... about what they'd like to see in F1

    Mine... I have 2 simple ones

    1) limit fuel, min of 20mpg or it can't finish the race

    2) NO aero what so ever! All cars MUST have no additional ground force(mass via wind) as measured in a windtunnel by the FIA

    NO OTHER RULES... the construction book would be simple

  • oldeskewltoy

    Nov. 4, 2009 4:41 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

    The problem as I see it.... Toyota never ran it Toyota's way....

    It was always a TTE project. Some may say that is good... my opinion is TTE is what eventually killed Toyota F1 - because they got their hands in the cookie jar as a reward for cheating in rally!

    Marc Gascoyne(now implicated in a cheating scandal), John Howett - these men aren't Toyota team players.... they are journeymen F1 men who endded up with Toyota....

    Toyota only succeeds when they do it THEIR way!

  • NYG95GA

    Nov. 4, 2009 5:11 p.m. NYG95GA SuperDork

    From what I've seen, "financial agreements" and contracts in F1 have the life expectancy of a mid-pack carbon fiber front wing in the first turn of a tight race on a narrow track: tenuous, at best. Deals are dropped, modified, bought out, or just passed over at will. Toyota will pay big time to get out if they want to bad enough, which is a shame, considering they had only started to get consistent results.

  • oldsaw

    Nov. 4, 2009 6:03 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    Shaun wrote:

    Where did you find the contract? Please post a link.

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Pages/fia_f1_co...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_Agreement

    On 29 July, 2008, the ten currently competing teams created the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) to negotiate the terms of contract. After a dispute between FOTA and the FIA in the first half of 2009, a new Concorde Agreement was signed by Mosely and all of the teams except BMW Sauber, which had announced its intention of withdrawing from the sport at the end of the season shortly beforehand. The new agreement provides for a continuation of the terms of the 1998 agreement, and runs until December 31, 2012. At the same meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council, a programme of resource restriction was also agreed upon, as were a revised set of sporting and technical regulations for the 2010 season.[8]

    Sorry, but I couldn't find a direct link to the actual contract. If you need a copy for direct proof, perhaps you can petition the FIA for a copy.

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/global/pages/contact.aspx

    Again, my apologies for not providing a direct link, but from following the sport for decades, I know that teams pay a non-refundable bond upon entrance and acceptance to the F1 ranks and the cost has been as much as 30-40 million.

    If you feel compelled to take me to task for not providing specific links, knock yourself out or do your own research.

  • Keith

    Nov. 4, 2009 8:17 p.m. Keith PowerDork

    ReverendDexter wrote:

    Keith wrote:

    I'd like to see Toyota back in WRC. Far more exciting than watching cars go around the same 12 corners over and over!

    Me too - that would involve them making another AllTrac. Of course, that's the very reason I'm pretty sure they won't do it. When it comes to Toyota and "driving excitement" (sorry Pontiac), I'll believe it when I can go down to the showroom and take it for a test drive (I'm looking at you, FT86).

    Unfortunately, not necessarily. You can't buy an AWD Focus or C4.

    Again, the cheating (which was actually admired for the execution) took place at least 5 years before Toyota decided to leave WRC.

  • ReverendDexter

    Nov. 4, 2009 8:29 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

    Keith wrote:

    Unfortunately, not necessarily. You can't buy an AWD Focus or C4.

    I thought you could in Europe, but then again, the Focus RS is lauded for it's spectacular FWD handling.

    We as fans need to INSIST on homogolation rules again. If we can't have it, they shouldn't be able to have it!

  • maroon92

    Nov. 4, 2009 9:17 p.m. maroon92 UberDork

    nope, no AWD Focus...its a shame really, the RS and ST would be very good competition for the STi and WRX (even with only 2 driven wheels, they already kinda are)

  • Shaun

    Nov. 4, 2009 9:48 p.m. Shaun Reader

    oldsaw wrote:

    Shaun wrote:

    Where did you find the contract? Please post a link.

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Pages/fia_f1_co...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_Agreement

    On 29 July, 2008, the ten currently competing teams created the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) to negotiate the terms of contract. After a dispute between FOTA and the FIA in the first half of 2009, a new Concorde Agreement was signed by Mosely and all of the teams except BMW Sauber, which had announced its intention of withdrawing from the sport at the end of the season shortly beforehand. The new agreement provides for a continuation of the terms of the 1998 agreement, and runs until December 31, 2012. At the same meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council, a programme of resource restriction was also agreed upon, as were a revised set of sporting and technical regulations for the 2010 season.[8]

    "Sorry, but I couldn't find a direct link to the actual contract. If you need a copy for direct proof, perhaps you can petition the FIA for a copy.

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/global/pages/contact.aspx

    Again, my apologies for not providing a direct link, but from following the sport for decades, I know that teams pay a non-refundable bond upon entrance and acceptance to the F1 ranks and the cost has been as much as 30-40 million.

    If you feel compelled to take me to task for not providing specific links, knock yourself out or do your own research."

    Thanks for posting the links. There is nowhere near enough detail in them for a person to reasonably declare Toyota "in breach". The FIA release itself comes nowhere near stating that Toyota is in breach of the contract, and in fact they are rather polite towards Toyota about bailing. I do not doubt for a second that the teams pony up a non refundable fee, and I seriously doubt Toyota legal would bother to fight over that. One would need to see the contract(s) to even begin to state Toyota is in breach. As idiotic the management of F1 and FIA has been with Bernie and (retired)Max, I doubt Toyota legal is an organization even they would trifle with. Hence the toothless but somewhat huffy request from FIA seeking "urgent clarification" as to the team's "legal position".

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