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Companies don't go sour overnight. On Toyota's scale, even 10 years is relatively quick. They are getting their wake-up call and odds are that they'll respond appropriately. In a way, they are lucky. The big three's slide was so slow that turning them around is a more difficult task than a company that just recently started slipping.
(Credit where due, Ford, and to a lesser extent GM seem to be making the right decisions. Chrysler not so much. But that's another thread....)
oldsaw wrote:In reply to alfadriver:
The NHTSA has the bad habit of getting way too cozy with the industry it is supposed to regulate; just like the SEC. All manufacturers have experienced problems that forced recalls but the NHTSA starts getting zealous when lives might be in jeopardy.
Actually, they don't.
How do I know this? I talked to some of our Lawyers when there was some issues with me and the the govenment.... Whereas many employees of the EPA are married to people who work for anyone, the same fact can't be said of NHTSA. They actually would force the government employee to choose between marriage or work. I kid you not.
Are there people at the Big 3 who used to work for NHTSA? Probably, but some of this current investigation does suggest that Toyota was able to skirt some rather sticky recall items until it became way out of their control. Had they done the right thing, right away, none of this blow up would have happened. I know people sure like to think all of us have some inside track to the govenment, but you seem to forget that we are the most heavily regulated industry in the world, especially for consumer goods- even now, CO2 rules are going into effect to change the car contribution from 16% to 15%.... at a cost of what? Let alone safety, emmissions, labor, etc. No inside track- this is an industry with a target, not a lobby.
Of course, people still want to blame the driver, but, lets be serious- you should not be put into the situation in the first place. We enthusiests sure like to pretend we are Gods gifts to driving, but you honestly have no idea how you would react until it happens to you. I know you say you know, but you don't.
Toyota will fix the problem just because they want to stay in business. If they don't, well... the choice is pretty obvious.
oldsaw, you forgot the factory optional TRD supercharger available for the Scions
In reply to alfadriver:
How was Toyota able to "skirt" the problems for so long? In an industry so heavily regulated, your contention suggests the regulators failed at least as much as Toyota.
The auto industry doesn't lobby for it own interests? BS!
You took my statement about driver culpability WAY out of context. Manufacturers should never offer a product that might jeopardize the safety of its' customers; we agree on that. But, there is no emphasis on teaching drivers a minimum of skills on how to safely use or control their vehicles; it's cheaper and easier make the manufacturer responsible.
And, we also agree on why Toyota will fix their problems.
oldsaw wrote:They blamed the driver + floor mats every time. No need to investigate. And there are a lot of people out there who are suggesting that regulators did not do their home work. I'm just parroting what they are saying.In reply to alfadriver:
How was Toyota able to "skirt" the problems for so long? In an industry so heavily regulated, your contention suggests the regulators failed at least as much as Toyota.
The auto industry doesn't lobby for it own interests? BS!
You took my statement about driver culpability WAY out of context. Manufacturers should never offer a product that might jeopardize the safety of its' customers; we agree on that. But, there is no emphasis on teaching drivers a minimum of skills on how to safely use or control their vehicles; it's cheaper and easier make the manufacturer responsible.
And, we also agree on why Toyota will fix their problems.
Of course we have lobbiest. And it's one of the weakest lobbies in Washington. The car is the easiest and most convienent target for every evil known to man- public transportation- blame the car, emission- blame the car, Global warming- blame the car, safety- blame the car, etc etc etc.
I took your statement out of context? You seemed to blame the driver for Toyota's problems. Do they cause accidents? No doubt- to the order of 40k deaths per year. Does that relieve Toyota's resposibility? Not one single iota.
And Toyotas problems run a lot deeper than most people thing, IMHO. This safety thing is just what you see. Read their annual reports to shareholders- compare costs to, say GM. Read their SAE papers for low emissions, or read their claims to the car magazines about why they do things. It's not pretty. You can take that as a biased position, but I read it like I see it.
Eric
A few points from me:
where is the cobalt (exploding into FIRE!) recall news and the ford fusion hybrid brakes recall news?
Toyota will fix everything by finally selling a 75 series diesel cruiser in the states and all will be well...
The ad they have on TV and all the communication thy are doing is quite great. They are taking the bull by the horns and starting to control the story. It's PR 101.
Sure they got problems, no company can remain on top all the time. Business is cyclical. However, they grew their market share by 300% in the US in 17 years. Any company that can pull off that kind of growth, can recover from this issue.
For decades, we've been going out of our way to find fault in the Big 3- between quality issues and Labor problems, that when the shoe is on the other foot, we question that.
No one's had to "go our of our way" to find fault with the Big 3- unfortunately.
alfadriver wrote:I took your statement out of context? You seemed to blame the driver for Toyota's problems. Do they cause accidents? No doubt- to the order of 40k deaths per year. Does that relieve Toyota's resposibility? Not one single iota.
Eric, go back and read my post. I never said that Toyota (or any other manufacturer) is exempt from their inherent responsibility.
What I contend is that driver incompetence is (sometimes/often) a factor in accidents resulting in injuries or fatalities; even when a defect manifests itself.
You may put that in any context that makes your perception as your reality, just as I do.
Unintended acceleration- Some years ago I had a real pretty '78 Malibu that I dropped into a well built 355 SBC. Going across Alligator Alley I decided to "Open her up, see what she could do." Somewhere north of 140mph, I took my foot off the gas and nothing changed. Couple of weeks prior I had a bad backfire and small carb fire from the dizzy coming loose. Tightened it down, retimed it, forgot about it. Foam in the Edelbrock aircleaner was toast, got sucked into the secondaries, locking them wide open. With my stone age technology, all I had to do was turn off the key. Blew the hell out of the mufflers, but came peacefully to a stop. Cleaned out the carb as best I could, continued on my way. Don't need no stinkin computer to keep me from shutting down.
north of 140 mph with stone aged tech FTMFW
alfadriver wrote:racerdave600 wrote:Don't underestimate the damage a non-sporting image can do to a car company. There is a reason why most every car company in the world strives to have an image like that, and why they spend the money they do.
Outside of their rather poor execution of their F1 program, Toyota has been doing that for a LONG time now- and it took a major hit to their quality to hit their image. Not the lack of a sporty car.
A sporty car caters to Car and Driver and Road & Track- both of which stopped taking 95% of the market seriously for a long time. Now that AW also ignores that 95% of the market, few rag magazines will matter.
The problem with "sporty cars" is that it's all pretend. And it costs a lot of money to pretend. It's incredibly hard to make money off of enthusiests, since there are really not enough of them out there. It seems that the only market for "sporty" cars is for sports cars (<100k/year, so the dominant market performers cost big$), Muscle cars (can make some money on a Charger, but not nearly what people think- see the Pontiac GTO and variants), and Pony cars- (the ONLY marketable segment to make decent money on cheap cars- otherwise the V6 auto mustang would be the dominant car in that market). And even the pony car entire market is smaller than Camry by itself. Which is dwarfed by the F150.
There's barley enough sporty buyers to support what there is today.
Eric
You missed the point totally, it's all about marketing, perception and engineering, not the profit you make on selling them. Granted some sports cars do make money, but not in the same league as a luxury car or SUV.
cwh wrote: Don't need no stinkin computer to keep me from shutting down.
