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pjbgravely
pjbgravely Reader
11/20/16 11:12 a.m.
SVreX wrote: ...- Infrastructure was a PITA. I had 2 choices- propane retail dealerships, or industrial gas suppliers. Neither of them was equipped to fuel a vehicle on a regular basis. They were set up to load tank trucks and bar-b-que grills. Always a long wait to get service....

All this sounds like a propane system. Propane is loaded as a liquid. A lot more can go into the tank extending range. It takes processing to make propane, making the cost higher.

bentwrench wrote: ...You can buy a pump that hangs on the wall of your garage and refill the car in your garage.... Google Phill or Fuelmaker, not exactly cheap but will pay for its self

Both systems seem to require a natural gas supply to work. I may be wrong. I am sure not all of us have natural gas to our homes. Where I live now the Governor is actively blocking a new pipe line. Where I will be moving to there isn't even cable TV.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/20/16 11:17 a.m.

You Northerners are assuming CNG is piped into everyone's home, or at least neighborhood. It's not.

The vast majority of the country does not have it. Probably looks a lot like the blue parts of a political map.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/20/16 11:20 a.m.

In reply to pjbgravely:

My truck burned both LP and Natural gas. You are right, a great deal of my experience was with LP, but that's the reality of the infrastructure system right now in this country.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
11/20/16 11:22 a.m.
ncjay wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that front end that couldn't be cured with a high speed collision with a train.

FTFY

RevRico
RevRico Dork
11/20/16 11:49 a.m.
SVreX wrote: People thought Edison was an idiot when he promoted the electric light bulb because there was no infrastructure in place.

Edison was an idiot, who just had powerful friends. Remember, this is the guy that wanted DC substations and DC power lines going to every single house and business. Apparently he couldn't even wrap his head around current drop. Had he not slung mud at Tesla at every single opportunity, wireless flouro and wireless energy would have prevailed with no need for ugly copper wire infrastructure. But why give something so valuable away for free when you can charge out the ass for it?

I make that statement, for a thought regarding actual and modern EVs. We know Tesla's wireless electricity worked. There is no disputing that, it worked, and it covered a large area. Still works, still covers large areas, but now we have the tech to make it REALLY big. Had this technology been allowed to evolve into the real world instead of being relegated to labs and college classes, it makes sense that the EV would have evolved well beyond where it is today.

Think about it. There would be an infrastructure of repeaters already, much like our electrical substations today. If the cars didn't have to ...mate... with the power grid to recharge, the range could be potentially endless, stopping this whole fueling station/battery swap crap that companies are trying to make work today.

I'll even take this half a step further thanks to some news I saw from Vegas in the last few weeks. Las Vegas is beginning to look at kinetic energy charging for street lights and signs and crap. Gathering energy from people just walking on the sidewalk. This tech is still in it's infancy for now, as there was no real need or means of doing so in the past. I'll argue this same tech could be scaled to make use of cars on roads/highways. In my head, big moving metal cars would produce much more kinetic power than foot traffic, as the cars themselves potentially create far more energy moving about than any amount of people. I'm sure there is something with electrical and magnetic fields being affected by the cars I'm too rusty and out of touch with to explain properly, but the gist of it is that the cars going down the highway by the generation points could shed wasted power back into the grid system. Essentially making them low loss, possibly no loss, electric vehicles as the cycle goes.

But what do I know, I'm not a banker with millions of dollars invested in the wrong thing in the early 1900's and a friend who owns a newspaper. Funny how that combination of things has picked the wrong thing pretty much every time cough Anslinger cough

As far as hydrogen powered cars go, that whole line is a bust. BUT, hydrogen powered space ships should not be ruled out. It is the most abundant element in the universe right behind human stupidity, and is widely available everywhere beyond our planet. It is worth looking into to get off this rock, but doesn't really have a purpose as long as we're still stuck here.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/20/16 12:22 p.m.

...and since one of Elon Musk's real goals is Mars colonization, AND he owns SpaceEx, I'm certain he is a fan of BOTH!

pjbgravely
pjbgravely Reader
11/20/16 12:36 p.m.
SVreX wrote: In reply to pjbgravely: My truck burned both LP and Natural gas. You are right, a great deal of my experience was with LP, but that's the reality of the infrastructure system right now in this country.

I didn't know they made such a beast. It was probably a compromise. The local natural gas company runs all CNG fleet. The Electric part of the company doesn't run electric vehicles. That says something.

In my area there is 1 CNG station 50 miles from here.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/20/16 12:44 p.m.

In reply to pjbgravely:

I don't think it means much at all, other than they have the same purchasing agent.

Yes, it was a compromise.

And yes, 50 miles away for CNG is not uncommon. That's kinda my point.

kanaric
kanaric Dork
11/20/16 1:23 p.m.
SVreX wrote: You Northerners are assuming CNG is piped into everyone's home, or at least neighborhood. It's not. The vast majority of the country does not have it. Probably looks a lot like the blue parts of a political map.

I get your complains about LPG for car fuel but Australia is similar to the south in terms of climate and they still have (or had, this was a long time ago) pumps everywhere even without gas connections to the house.

I just think these people need to put up or shut up. You can have an internal combustion engine run on hydrogen. The tech exists and we know ICE works. Why are they working on fuel cell nonsense when we can have our v8 and hydrogen too and in the same car? This fuel cell nonsense is confusing to me. It's unnecessary tech if the goal is to get hydrogen powered cars on the road.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
11/20/16 1:49 p.m.
The tech exists and we know ICE works. Why are they working on fuel cell nonsense

Because there ARE applications and there WILL be buyers, and in the meantime the act of subsidizing long-game research by building fuel cell 'cars' also lets them off the hook of coming with some other 'token zero emissions vehicle' to produce in tiny numbers to fulfill some regulatory requirement that's not stringent enough to result in the overall vehicle fleet becoming any cleaner.

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
11/20/16 11:24 p.m.

ICE is ridiculously inefficient when compared to electric motors. As far as the long game goes, I don't think ICE merits consideration. Moreover, the goal isn't to get hydrogen powered cars on the road, it's to be cleaner and more efficient. Hydrogen just looks like being a promising lead for that goal.

Sounds like we shouldn't try to store hydrogen in steel. I think humanity has experimented with making containers out of other materials and with other designs, though. There was a bleeding edge company experimenting with retail distribution of a lightly reactive liquid in exotic polymer-lined aluminum canisters a few years ago. Keystone Beer I think they were called...

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