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  • alfadriver

    Feb. 3, 2010 11:36 a.m. alfadriver Dork

    Tyler H wrote:

    Basically, if you were disgusted with how Ford handled the Firestone debacle, you should be the same, or more horrified (since the problem has been going on longer, on more models) with this situation and Toyota.

    I'm not so sure that's the case. Ford knew they had a problem with Explorer tire failure / rollovers and analyzed the data until they had enough to irrefutably pin it on Firestone.

    By the time Ford went public, 115 people were dead.

    I wonder what the death count is for the Toyota recall? I heard of four in a single accident. I also wonder why CTS has been silent on this?

    To set the record a little more straight- you may want to check http://money.cnn.com/2000/08/30/news/firestone_chronology/

    First of all, it was 21 fatlities and 193 complaints. Not 115 fatalities. Other sources do increase that after the reaction by Bridgestone/Firestone and Ford.

    Second, if you read the timeline, according to CNN, what was know in '98- Firestone wasn't making the part to even their own specification. Also, the recall was mainly done by Bridgestone/Firestone, since it was their part. Ford did pay for a lot of it, as they replaced the questionable tires with something else.

    Not to say that any of the parties were perfect, but lets not blow it out of porportion.

    While other articles point out increased claims later, it's pretty clear that once the reaction started, it was quick. The overall timeline was shorter, the number of vehicles affected was far, far smaller (by about an order of magnitude- 400,000 to +4M). Toyota has been dragging this one out since it's first complaint in a Lexus in 1999.

  • carguy123

    Feb. 3, 2010 12:00 p.m. carguy123 SuperDork

    alfadriver wrote:

    This isn't going to help- Transportation Secretary tells onwers to stop driving.... http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/02/toyota-recall-transpo...

    Actually he said only stop driving them if you see a problem.

  • oldsaw

    Feb. 3, 2010 12:14 p.m. oldsaw HalfDork

    carguy123 wrote:

    alfadriver wrote:

    This isn't going to help- Transportation Secretary tells onwers to stop driving.... http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/02/toyota-recall-transpo...

    Actually he said only stop driving them if you see a problem.

    The Trans Sec is backing-off his original statement, claiming he "mis-spoke".

    Sounds like he realized he is at least partly responsible for adding to a consumer panic frenzy. But the unanswered questions remains - "are the cars safe, or not?"

  • Cotton

    Feb. 4, 2010 9:25 a.m. Cotton HalfDork

    They are looking into the Prius now for a different issue: http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/04/news/companies/prius_nhtsa/index.htm?hpt=T1

  • iceracer

    Feb. 4, 2010 9:36 a.m. iceracer HalfDork

    Now Toyota admits to an ABS problem on the Prius.

  • 4cylndrfury

    Feb. 4, 2010 10:00 a.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

    apparently the NHTSA is also considering investigating any vehicles that have had unintentional acceleration issues.

  • John Brown

    Feb. 4, 2010 4:39 p.m. John Brown SuperDork

    http://www.autospies.com/news/Former-Toyota-Lawyer-Fesses-about-300-concealed-lawsuits-51700/ said:

    Former Toyota Lawyer Fesses about 300 concealed lawsuits.

    As Toyota scrambles to contain its sudden acceleration crisis, another potential blow to the automaker's credibility is lurking in the form of a former staff attorney who is accusing the Japanese automaker of concealing safety issues from the public.

    Dimitrios Biller of Pacific Palisades, Calif., who defended Toyota in product-liability cases until 2008, alleges in a federal lawsuit that the automaker has a long history of hiding and destroying evidence as part of a strategy orchestrated from company headquarters in Toyota City, Japan.

    Toyota and its ex-employee have been involved in a tangle of litigation in state and federal courts for months, centered on 6,000 internal documents obtained by Biller. He said the documents show a pattern of illegal behavior in which Toyota fraudulently withheld evidence in product-liability claims.

    At Toyota's urging, the documents have been kept confidential by court order since last summer. But now a California arbitrator is considering whether they can be made public. Attorneys for Toyota and Biller made their final filings in the matter last week, and a decision is expected soon.

  • ignorant

    Feb. 4, 2010 6:35 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

    iceracer wrote:

    Now Toyota admits to an ABS problem on the Prius.

    The problems seem to be nearly like the well documented "ice mode" that happens to wrx's during fast corners with bumps in them.......

    not right. but seems very similar.

  • Treb

    Feb. 4, 2010 8:53 p.m. Treb Reader

    The first time I ever heard of 'ice mode', it was w/r/t autoxing an MRS.

  • DILYSI Dave

    Feb. 5, 2010 7:37 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

    Oh how I hope that this fiasco does something to fix ice mode on other cars. It's bullE36 M3 that something that is supposed to make braking better has a scenario where it removes braking all together.

  • Bobzilla

    Feb. 5, 2010 8:00 a.m. Bobzilla Dork

    The only vehicle I own with ABS is the tow rig, which coincidentally also has TBW. Does this mean I will die?

  • AngryCorvair

    Feb. 5, 2010 11:25 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

    DILYSI Dave wrote:

    Oh how I hope that this fiasco does something to fix ice mode on other cars. It's bullE36 M3 that something that is supposed to make braking better has a scenario where it removes braking all together.

    it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

    this is not a rhetorical question: do cars with full ESC / DSC / whatever acronym for "stability control" exhibit ice-mode behavior while autocrossing?

    oh, and Bobzilla, it was nice knowing you.

  • DILYSI Dave

    Feb. 5, 2010 11:44 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

    AngryCorvair wrote:

    this is not a rhetorical question: do cars with full ESC / DSC / whatever acronym for "stability control" exhibit ice-mode behavior while autocrossing?

    No idea. Only car I had with DSC was the 540, and I never autocrossed it. I've never autocrossed the WRX, but it's brakes are crap on any loose surface. Not nearly as good as a non-ABS car. On wet asphalt they kick ass, but start playing in the snow or on gravel and they turn to E36 M3.

  • DILYSI Dave

    Feb. 5, 2010 11:46 a.m. DILYSI Dave SuperDork

    AngryCorvair wrote:

    it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

    Question - Why is it that when the ABS gets freaked out, it defaults to no brakes. It seems like it's better default position would be to just disable, so that even though the computer doesn't know what it wants, at least the driver still has some input.

  • MrJoshua

    Feb. 5, 2010 11:50 a.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

    WRX brakes really do suck on loose surfaces-stopping fine then all of the sudden-OH CRAP and you are 3 feet farther forward than you should be.

  • ignorant

    Feb. 5, 2010 6:02 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

    I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all.

    It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

  • AngryCorvair

    Feb. 6, 2010 8:49 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

    DILYSI Dave wrote:

    AngryCorvair wrote:

    it can be fixed. it can not be fixed for free.

    Question - Why is it that when the ABS gets freaked out, it defaults to no brakes. It seems like it's better default position would be to just disable, so that even though the computer doesn't know what it wants, at least the driver still has some input.

    Without seeing the wheel speed and pressure transducer data, I can't say whether a car goes into "no brakes" (ie dumps pressure to non-affected corners) or if it goes into "no more brakes" (ie isolates corners from MC so no additional pressure can be applied).

    I have never experienced "ice mode" except when driving on ice. I'm not denying its existence, I'm only saying that I don't know exactly how it is implemented.

    Keep in mind that vehicle manufacturers do not all have the same philosophies concerning FMEAs, nor do they have the same set of requirements for performance, diagnostics, etc.

    Also keep in mind that there may be a hundred different tires that will fit on the OE wheels for any particular vehicle at the time of that vehicle's manufacture, and there will certainly be new ones available in the future. It is impossible for an OE to develop performance calibrations for every possible combination that could wind up on that vehicle within a day of it being put out on the street, so systems are developed on the OE tire, and in the case of a vehicle that comes with summer-only tires it will probably (at the mfg's discretion) be developed on an OE-recommended snow tire.

    Another non-rhetorical question: does ice mode happen on every car with ABS?

    And one more: does ice mode only happen on sticky tires, or is it documented to occur on OE no-seasons as well?

  • Jensenman

    Feb. 6, 2010 9:14 a.m. Jensenman SuperDork

    ignorant wrote:

    I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all.

    It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

    The real problem was the traction control. It was set up for pavement and was super intrusive off road, obviously the safety Nazis were deeply involved in deciding the parameters.

    There is a method of permanently disabling the traction control which involves some weird gyrations. Seriously. You have to turn the steering certain amounts both ways so many times, hold the ESP button etc and it will disable the ABS. The '08's are already set up to allow this, '07's will need a reflash of the ESP/ABS module for it to work.

    Shamelessly ripped off from a Jeep forum:

    Key pointers: have engine running, don't worry about hearing chimes, and move to the next step immediately after completing each step.

    1. Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear. b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete. c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position. Firmly set parking brake. d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centered and the wheels are pointed straight ahead. e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the right (clockwise). HOLD steering wheel in this position. f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. (You will hear a chime at 5 secs, ignore it) g. Turn the steering wheel back to center, then turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the left (counterclockwise). HOLD the steering wheel in this position. h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. i. Turn the steering wheel back to center. j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.

    2. While the Permanent ESP Disable feature is turned on, the vehicle will display the following: a. The ESP telltale in the instrument cluster will be illuminated. b. The vehicle odometer will display a “ESP OFF” message.

    3. To Turn OFF The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Repeat the above procedure (in Step 1).

  • Wally

    Feb. 6, 2010 10:54 a.m. Wally SuperDork

    AngryCorvair wrote: Another non-rhetorical question: does ice mode happen on every car with ABS?

    And one more: does ice mode only happen on sticky tires, or is it documented to occur on OE no-seasons as well?

    I had never heard of ice mode until a few weeks ago but in my brothers 94 Cavalier and again in my 99 I have experienced it several times.
    The scary part is that with them you did not need ice, aggressive driving, or bald tires. When the road is damp, either in the morning or when it begins to rain and you apply the brakes for a stop sign on occasion the computer will turn off the brakes until you lift your foot and start over. I am pretty sure that the brakes release because going down hill you will pick up speed. I have found that the only way to avoid it is to keep name GOOD all season or snow tires on the car and replace them when they wear enough for this to start happening. Oddly my 02 Malibu's ABS will work perfectly in the snow with four bald tires. I don't know how they got one so wrong and one dead on.

  • ignorant

    Feb. 6, 2010 12:38 p.m. ignorant SuperDork

    Jensenman wrote:

    ignorant wrote:

    I remember when the TJ first came out. Everyone was pulling the ABS fuse when driving off road. The damn thing wouldn't stop on dirt at all.

    It was kinda funny, a Jeep that wouldn't stop in the dirt.

    The real problem was the traction control. It was set up for pavement and was super intrusive off road, obviously the safety Nazis were deeply involved in deciding the parameters.

    There is a method of permanently disabling the traction control which involves some weird gyrations. Seriously. You have to turn the steering certain amounts both ways so many times, hold the ESP button etc and it will disable the ABS. The '08's are already set up to allow this, '07's will need a reflash of the ESP/ABS module for it to work.

    Shamelessly ripped off from a Jeep forum:

    Key pointers: have engine running, don't worry about hearing chimes, and move to the next step immediately after completing each step.

    1. Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear. b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete. c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position. Firmly set parking brake. d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centered and the wheels are pointed straight ahead. e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the right (clockwise). HOLD steering wheel in this position. f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. (You will hear a chime at 5 secs, ignore it) g. Turn the steering wheel back to center, then turn the steering wheel one-half (½) turn to the left (counterclockwise). HOLD the steering wheel in this position. h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. i. Turn the steering wheel back to center. j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds. Release the “ESP OFF” button right after 7 seconds. k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.

    2. While the Permanent ESP Disable feature is turned on, the vehicle will display the following: a. The ESP telltale in the instrument cluster will be illuminated. b. The vehicle odometer will display a “ESP OFF” message.

    3. To Turn OFF The Permanent ESP Disable Feature: a. Repeat the above procedure (in Step 1).

    Naw man I'm talkin 97 jeep not 2007 jeep. No trac control on early tj's

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