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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Toyota's modern technology is killing people!!!

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Oct. 20, 2009 4:02 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

In reference to the run away car problem that killed that guy in San Diego recently:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,739395.story?page=1

It looks like all this technology might be catching up with us.

Some highlights:

.....One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold....

....The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."
Oct. 20, 2009 4:04 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

aircooled wrote: . "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."

It's for styling and color choices, apparently.
Oct. 20, 2009 4:13 p.m. GregTivo Reader

Easy, fuel cut-off switch, another magical technology brought to your from every motorsport event since the car was invented.

Of course then some idiot would claim he was trying to turn the radio and accidently turned off his car, turning him into a helpless power steeringless power brakeless victim of malevolent auto manufacturer.
Oct. 20, 2009 4:18 p.m. RexSeven Dork

ReverendDexter wrote:

aircooled wrote: . "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."

It's for styling and color choices, apparently.
Oct. 20, 2009 4:27 p.m. MCarp22 Reader

aircooled wrote: ....The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

BS. Nobody uses that, you push the shifter straight ahead to get neutral, just like in a normal automatic.
Oct. 20, 2009 4:35 p.m. Tetzuoe New Reader

GregTivo wrote:

Easy, fuel cut-off switch, another magical technology brought to your from every motorsport event since the car was invented.

Of course then some idiot would claim he was trying to turn the radio and accidently turned off his car, turning him into a helpless power steeringless power brakeless victim of malevolent auto manufacturer.

Yeah, It would probably be my go to switch if the driver said something to piss me off.
Oct. 20, 2009 5:14 p.m. thatsnowinnebago Dork

I think maybe we should stop blaming the car makers for problems like this and instead take some personal responsibility. Granted, having to hold down the off button for 3 seconds to shut the car seems a bit dumb. I agree that that car crash was a tragedy and those people shouldn't have died, don't get me wrong. I'm just tired of people letting things get to the point that bad things like that happen. Run away cars don't get to top speed instantly, it takes some time in which I would think people would realize there is a problem and act to correct it, either by forcing the vehicle into park or shifting into neutral. A new transmission is way better than getting seriously hurt or killed. The accidents caused by the Firestone issue referenced in that article were entirely driver error. C&D or R&T did an article about that and found that if their test driver didn't do anything when the tire blew out, nothing happened. He took his hands off the wheel and took both feet off the pedals at which point the Explorer slowed down and kept all 4 tires on the ground.
Oct. 20, 2009 5:15 p.m. xci_ed6 Reader

So the problem is, once again, stupid people?
Oct. 20, 2009 5:16 p.m. itsarebuild New Reader

great! i cringe every time i see that lexus commercial about the radar warning systems and other gunk. dont these engineers know they are just telling people to text away and trust that the car will save them from their bad habits!?
Oct. 20, 2009 5:25 p.m. klipless New Reader

thatsnowinnebago wrote:

I think maybe w... tires on the ground.

+1 for what he said
Oct. 20, 2009 6:45 p.m. Xceler8x Dork

Here comes the contrarian!

That or, like Audi, the design is poor. I'm referring to when Audi designed a pedal cluster that put the gas pedal where the brake used to be. Caused all sorts of problems.

Engineering, like people, is rarely perfect.
Oct. 20, 2009 6:54 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

Step on the brakes.

Come on people. Brake torque > engine torque
Oct. 20, 2009 7:36 p.m. Toyman01 HalfDork

ignorant wrote:

Step on the brakes.

Come on people. Brake torque > engine torque

Quoted from the article:

"The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

Indeed, a 2007 study by federal highway safety officials showed that braking distance and force on a Lexus ES 350 increased fivefold when the throttle was wide open. And evidence introduced in sudden acceleration trials suggests that it can take up to 225 pounds of pressure on a brake pedal to arrest a runaway vehicle, far more than most drivers can muster from a seated position,..."

I could probably do it, but I know my wife couldn't. If your ES 350 went WOT at 70mph, how fast would it be going after you dug your key fob out of you pocket and mashed a button for three seconds. I'm betting it would be over 100mph. Around here you would hit something before you could. If it was the wife, she would have to dig it out of the pocket book.

Not sure why you wouldn't shift to neutral. All of my autos will go from drive to neutral easy. If it's like my wife's van, you wouldn't even loose an engine. The neutral/park rev limiter is set at 2500rpm.
Oct. 20, 2009 7:50 p.m. Strizzo SuperDork

actually you'd have to hold the button on the dash down for 3 seconds, not the one on the key fob that could be in a purse in the back seat
Oct. 20, 2009 8:16 p.m. 4eyes Reader

xci_ed6 wrote:

So the problem is, once again, stupid people?

Always
Oct. 20, 2009 8:16 p.m. Toyman01 HalfDork

Strizzo wrote:

actually you'd have to hold the button on the dash down for 3 seconds, not the one on the key fob that could be in a purse in the back seat

Ahhh that makes sense. Shows what I know about all that new fangled stuff. All my cars have keys. I think I'll stick with them.
Oct. 21, 2009 10:11 a.m. MadScientistMatt Dork

Here's a picture of the ES350 shifter:

http://www.autotropolis.com/2009/lexus/es-350/308145/shifter-or--center-console/in...

It does look at first glance like you could just shove it forward hard to push it into neutral, but shoving it forward is also what you would do to make it upshift. I suspect there's something else you have to do to make it go into neutral, such as pushing a button. Otherwise somebody shifting it manually could easily put it in neutral by accident.

And one more thing... that car has a drive by wire throttle.

I'm putting the blame on Toyota for this one. They've set up the car so that any likely action the driver might take in a panic would not shut it down - there's no key to turn, whacking the shifter forward without any other action would trigger an upshift instead of going into neutral, and it seems they didn't even think to program the drive by wire throttle to snap closed when the brakes are applied.
Oct. 21, 2009 10:23 a.m. andrave HalfDork

every drive by wire car I've driven will not give full throttle while youre on the brakes, and I'm surprised that harpy, green, safety oriented toyota isn't among that group.

At any rate I don't really think this problem is exclusive to toyota. Can you name a single other car maker that has an emergency off switch?

personally I don't really see the point in the seperate key and start switch. Thats two steps whereas regular keyed ignitions only have one. If this guy had time to call 911 he should have had time to shift into neutral, shut the engine off, or reach down and manually pop the accelerator off the floor.
Oct. 21, 2009 10:30 a.m. tuna55 Reader

People are stupid. People will always be stupid. People will always blame someone else for their stupidity. Typically this results in the loss of millions of dollars from the blamed to the "victim".

My father was joking once about being the victim in a situation (totally joking). My grandmother misheard the end of the conversation, thought he was serious, and basically shouted "NO SON OF MINE WILL EVER BE THE VICTIM OF ANYTHING".

They just don't raise 'em like they used to. Dear old Gram passed on about three years ago - shame she only added three kids to the population.
Oct. 21, 2009 10:38 a.m. Joe Gearin Associate Publisher

I get annoyed whenever I'm in a new car that doesn't have a key. I hate "starter" buttons. It is an answer to a question no one asked. Added complexity, and tech for no real benefit. I'm not a fan of tech for tech's sake.

I find no hassle in using a key, or having knobs on my stereo instead of having to decode 4 computer menus to change the channel.

skynet is on it's way....
Oct. 21, 2009 10:41 a.m. carguy123 Dork

Got a Lexus and the shifter doesn't work any differently than any other brand. By pushing it forward you get neutral UNLESS you are in a separately gated area for the Manual shifting. Even then it is a matter of an instant to get it into neutral.

As far as the start/stop button, I just went for a short drive and hit the start button while driving. It instantly shut off the engine in every case. I wasn't driving 70mph but I did it under throttle and when the car was slowing down. The start button is like the S2000 start button and it's not in a place likely to be hit by accident, but it's also not hidden.

The car in the article had aftermarket rubber floor mats on top of the factory floor mats. The aftermarket mat got the gas pedal stuck.

I'm sorry for the guy and his family, but if he'd have kept his head there was nothing the car did that would have stopped him from shutting off the engine.

I've been in his position but in a non-tchnological car (60's car) where the mechanical linkage screwed up and the pedal got stuck @ WOT. Your first reaction isn't to turn the car off, it's to get the pedal unstuck. I tried to lift it with my toe and I stomped on the brakes. Neither worked so I turned the car off. Unfortunately that also locked the steering wheel so I alternated turning the engine off, turning the key to allow me to steer and then turning the key off until the car was stopped. I'd have been in a world of hurt if I'd have been in traffic or coming up on a stop sign but I wasn/t

The technology of the car didn't kill him, the stupidity of putting a 2nd floor mat and his not reacting properly is what killed him.
Oct. 21, 2009 10:47 a.m. RossD HalfDork

Neutral position? Is that like the missionary position?

I have aftermarket mats in my audi with a manual trans (OEM ones were gone when I bought it) and the gas pedal got stuck at WOT on the highway. I tried to get it unstuck by stomping on it but it didnt work. Then I pushed in the clutch and it sat there bouncing off the redline. Then I realized just pull the mat back towards my seat and it became unstuck. This all happened in a matter of 5-10 seconds, tops. I didnt even deviate from my lane, much.
Oct. 21, 2009 11:27 a.m. Raze Reader

I wonder what's on the onboard data recording device right before the accident took place...

And as far as shifting to neutral, I can see where that would be a problem if the engineers didn't account for a very specific control path, nowadays most shifters are electric, and controlled by computer, not manual linkage. I have first hand experience with odd automatic shifting capabilities built into an OEM car: My 1998 Cadillac Eldorado allowed you to leave the car in ANY forward gear and would automatically upshift when it hit redline, wouldn't bounce, wouldn't stay in that gear, why would anyone do this? because if you left it in 1st or 2nd it increased the line pressure to the transmission decreasing shift time (great for hard accelerations). Also, if you manually shifted it would revmatch before shifting automatically. The computer would also control shifts back from 3rd or 4th while you were in 2nd, though they always happened at higher rpms than normal. It's possible to not be able to shift out of gear, especially if there's some weird control path which is the real problem here.

I think a simple solution would be to attach a deactivate switch to your parking brake that tells the car's computer to take it out of gear and idle the engine, or at least cut fuel...
Oct. 21, 2009 11:47 a.m. alfadriver HalfDork

wrote: personally I don't really see the point in the seperate key and start switch. Thats two steps whereas regular keyed ignitions only have one. If this guy had time to call 911 he should have had time to shift into neutral, shut the engine off, or reach down and manually pop the accelerator off the floor.

Just so you know, there isn't a key. The car detects the key fob- in your pocket, purse, wherever. When it does that- it allows you to unlock the car with a touch of a pad, and then start the car when you push the start button. It is one motion.

Normally, to turn the accesories on, you touch the on button with your foot off of the brake. But few ever use the accessories w/o the engine running- so it's set up to just start when you touch the start button and have your foot on the brake.

It's kind of a cool thing. But all in all, I still prefer a key, even as a fob to unlock the doors and whatnot.

One of the "fears" of going to neurtral is going to far and hitting reverse- people think that you'll grenade the engine/trans/cause accident by doing that. But many cars will just stay in neutral if you go to R or P while the car is moving forward. Don't try it at home, but in case of an emergency, it is good to know that.
Oct. 21, 2009 12:04 p.m. Kia_racer New Reader

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. or small groups for that matter.

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