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  • CrackMonkey

    Oct. 21, 2009 12:07 p.m. CrackMonkey HalfDork

    MadScientistMatt wrote:

    Here's a picture of the ES350 shifter:

    http://www.autotropolis.com/2009/lexus/es-350/308145/shifter-or--center-console/in...

    It does look at first glance like you could just shove it forward hard to push it into neutral, but shoving it forward is also what you would do to make it upshift. I suspect there's something else you have to do to make it go into neutral, such as pushing a button. Otherwise somebody shifting it manually could easily put it in neutral by accident.

    If it's like my Volvo (which it appears to be), you just push the shifter right, then forward, to get from "semi-manual" mode back into "mindless drone" mode.

    As for the three second button thing, wouldn't a smart person RTFM when confronted with the potential of operating a 3500lb weapon? I know I would.

    Stupid people and their insistence on abdicating common sense and responsibility to the government are the problem.

  • M030

    Oct. 21, 2009 12:21 p.m. M030 Reader

    Joe Gearin wrote:

    I get annoyed whenever I'm in a new car that doesn't have a key. I hate "starter" buttons. It is an answer to a question no one asked. Added complexity, and tech for no real benefit. I'm not a fan of tech for tech's sake.

    +1

  • alfadriver

    Oct. 21, 2009 12:25 p.m. alfadriver HalfDork

    Can I point out that it's very, very easy to loose "common sense" when faced with a life/death situation. Many of you are sitting on your high horse, pretending that you would have done the right thing.

    I seriously doubt it. You have NO idea how you would really react to the situation given the exact same parameters. You think you do, and in retrospect, all of you are making the correct decisions. But you know what happened, and how to fix it.

    Now, be surprised, in traffic, with your family, to a sudden accel when you shifted your left foot on the floor mat- not having any idea of what just happened. With 4 people in the car yelling at you all at the same time.

    Think about it.

    Oh, and remember that airline pilots are trained for many many hours to react to problems. Whereas no drivers are required to learn to react to this situation. You think you know what to do, but I still challenge that you mind would not react correctly the first time, either.

    Here's how I see it:

    Sudden and scary unintentional WOT- first thing- lay on the brakes- and find that the effort to stop has changed SO much that what I'm used to isn't even close to stopping the car, and you are so scared that you don't think to push harder. Second- hit the off botton- but it doesn't register that you need to hold down for 3 seconds- the adrenalin has just gone overboard. Now your entire car is panicing, and yelling suggestions to what to do- many of which you ARE trying darn it- so your distractions has just gone through the roof.

    Pretend, now, that you would logically and rationally think that I can go into neutral or reverse w/o hurting the car and crashing.

    There's no logical and rational at that point. IIRC, in this case, there's ONE passenger on board who has the idea to call 911, which is pretty darned smart, hoping that OnStar or something remote can shut the car down. Which, of course, it can't.

    Think about it for a while before condemning the driver for laking common sense.

    Eric

  • Kia_racer

    Oct. 21, 2009 12:35 p.m. Kia_racer New Reader

    alfa driver,

    I see your point. A friend of mine had a '71 Cuda. We were heading up to WI on the Tri-state when the throttle broke WOT. He went into panic mode and just tied to slow us down with the brakes when they failed (yes this car should not have been on the streed but we were young and stupid) I shoved the slap stick shifter into what I thought was N but I had pushed the button in my hast and went up to park. Detonated the tranny and we went home on a hook.

    So yes I do agree that most people will panic,

  • jwdmotorsports

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:04 p.m. jwdmotorsports HalfDork

    We've talked about this a good bit at work (see my profile for my employer).

    Everybody at work has a similar opinion to people on here and don't believe that Toyota should have to recall cars over it.

    Something that should be kept in mind is that all of us at work are in the automotive industry and are around cars all the time and those of us on here are also around cars all the time. I'm sure I'm like a lot of people on here in that I've driven quite a few "quirky" cars and I don't panic that much if the car acts up.

    The average person that just drives their car from A to B doesn't have the background knowledge of cars that someone on here or that works in the automotive industry does. To the average person they are driving a new car and it's not acting the way it should but they don't know why.

  • orphancars

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:09 p.m. orphancars New Reader

    CrackMonkey wrote:

    As for the three second button thing, wouldn't a smart person RTFM when confronted with the potential of operating a 3500lb weapon? I know I would.

    +1

    My luddite wife, first thing she does when she gets a new car is to sit down and read the manual, cover to cover. She is somewhat technology resistant but does have the sense to read through the manual so she knows what the lights/knobs/dials do in her new car. It is amazing that the assumption among the masses is that every car should work/operate the same.........

  • GameboyRMH

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:27 p.m. GameboyRMH UltraDork

    alfadriver wrote:

    Can I point out that it's very, very easy to loose "common sense" when faced with a life/death situation. Many of you are sitting on your high horse, pretending that you would have done the right thing.

    Yeah. While I'd definitely have read the manual for any vehicle if I owned it, I'd be scared E36 M3less if I was driving a rental and the same thing happened. I'd probably run it into a ditch just to stop it.

    And tech for tech's sake is a bad thing on cars. This is not a tinkertoy, this is a big dangerous hunk of metal. It's also scary that there weren't more failsafe measures in place to prevent this sort of thing, as software throttle jamming should be a major concern for any car with an E-throttle. The E-throttle and starter button together was a bad setup - this is the same setup the Caparo T1 has and it's had throttle jamming problems as well (although it does have ignition and battery cutoff switches on the dash)

  • poopshovel

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:44 p.m. poopshovel UltraDork

    Can I point out that it's very, very easy to loose "common sense" when faced with a life/death situation. Many of you are sitting on your high horse, pretending that you would have done the right thing.

    +1. And if you're not a "car guy," and have been saturated with stories of cars spontaneously rolling over, catching on fire, etc., etc., etc., the panic could be even worse. I'll admit, my immediate reaction upon hearing this story on the news a while back was "what a berkeleying dumbass." Next, I asked my wife (not to be a dick, rather to make sure she knew the answer:) "QUICK! You're driving down the road and the car sticks at wide open throttle, what do you do!?" She answered the series of "what if that doesn't work?" questions correctly, and hubby was proud.

  • kreb

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:49 p.m. kreb Dork

    In reply to alfadriver:

    Absolutely agree. We all like to think that we'll react in an appropriate manner in an emergency. Let me relate a personal anecdote: I'm in a subway tunnel when I take note of an old man falling down an up escalator. I run over to him, arrest his tumble and help him off at the top. As the adrenaline wears off I realize that I ran past about 20 people before I reached the old man. WTF! Now you guys expect someone faced with a mechanical device seemingly run wild to make a thoughtful decision in a couple of seconds? What world do you live on?

  • andrave

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:50 p.m. andrave HalfDork

    alfadriver wrote:

    The car detects the key fob- in your pocket, purse, wherever. When it does that- it allows you to unlock the car with a touch of a pad, and then start the car when you push the start button. It is one motion.

    so youre saying he should have thrown his keys out the window?

    lololol

  • tuna55

    Oct. 21, 2009 1:55 p.m. tuna55 Reader

    andrave wrote:

    alfadriver wrote:

    The car detects the key fob- in your pocket, purse, wherever. When it does that- it allows you to unlock the car with a touch of a pad, and then start the car when you push the start button. It is one motion.

    so youre saying he should have thrown his keys out the window?

    lololol

    GREAT IDEA!

  • car39

    Oct. 21, 2009 4:05 p.m. car39 Reader

    CrackMonkey wrote:

    MadScientistMatt wrote:

    Here's a picture of the ES350 shifter:

    http://www.autotropolis.com/2009/lexus/es-350/308145/shifter-or--center-console/in...

    It does look at first glance like you could just shove it forward hard to push it into neutral, but shoving it forward is also what you would do to make it upshift. I suspect there's something else you have to do to make it go into neutral, such as pushing a button. Otherwise somebody shifting it manually could easily put it in neutral by accident.

    If it's like my Volvo (which it appears to be), you just push the shifter right, then forward, to get from "semi-manual" mode back into "mindless drone" mode.

    As for the three second button thing, wouldn't a smart person RTFM when confronted with the potential of operating a 3500lb weapon? I know I would.

    Stupid people and their insistence on abdicating common sense and responsibility to the government are the problem.

    If I remember the details, this car was a loaner from the dealer. People barely pay attention to what color car they're getting, never mind reading the manual.

  • thedude

    Oct. 21, 2009 4:37 p.m. thedude Reader

    Expecting someone to read the manual of a car which they will have for two days is ridiculous. No one here would do that (except maybe the one guy's wife). While not all cars are the same, all the essential functions (gas, brake, shifter) should be, and are, essentially the same. Reading the manual would not have helped in any event as it is fairly clear that the driver was panicking during the incident and therefore likely had reduced logical thought.

    It is easy to say that the driver should have been able to stop the car and avoid crashing. However you have to consider that the driver was not in "rational" mode during the incident. It was a brand new Lexus, which while not a supercar it is surely capable of adequate acceleration and speed well past what could be dealt with handily by a normal driver. It was noted that the driver was a highway patrolman and had some defensive driving courses; I don't think this adds anything significant to his ability to react to the situation encountered.

    Anyway I'm tired of typing, my point is the driver panicked and could not slow the vehicle. While I don't specifically blame the driver for killing all aboard, it is dismaying to know that the best idea he could come up with was to dial 911. Remember though, rationality cannot be expected in this situation. See: this story

  • ignorant

    Oct. 21, 2009 5:06 p.m. ignorant PowerDork

    Toyman01 wrote:

    1. And evidence introduced in sudden acceleration trials suggests that it can take up to 225 pounds of pressure on a brake pedal to arrest a runaway vehicle, far more than most drivers can muster from a seated position,..."

    so what they're saying is americans are weak and fat...

    time for these guys.

  • Strizzo

    Oct. 21, 2009 5:43 p.m. Strizzo SuperDork

    In reply to andrave:

    nope, it'll just start beeping at you and say the key is no longer detected. then when you DO get the car shut off, you have no keys to start the car again, lol

    similarly, if you forget to shut the car off and walk away from the car, anyone can hop in and take off. the car will run till they shut it off

  • ronbros

    Oct. 21, 2009 5:58 p.m. ronbros Reader

    say what you want,,,BUT that LEXUS LFA !! YES! i would take one.

  • forzav12

    Oct. 21, 2009 9:55 p.m. forzav12 New Reader

    alfadriver wrote:

    Can I point out that it's very, very easy to loose "common sense" when faced with a life/death situation. Many of you are sitting on your high horse, pretending that you would have done the right thing.

    I seriously doubt it. You have NO idea how you would really react to the situation given the exact same parameters. You think you do, and in retrospect, all of you are making the correct decisions. But you know what happened, and how to fix it.

    Now, be surprised, in traffic, with your family, to a sudden accel when you shifted your left foot on the floor mat- not having any idea of what just happened. With 4 people in the car yelling at you all at the same time.

    Think about it.

    Oh, and remember that airline pilots are trained for many many hours to react to problems. Whereas no drivers are required to learn to react to this situation. You think you know what to do, but I still challenge that you mind would not react correctly the first time, either.

    Here's how I see it:

    Sudden and scary unintentional WOT- first thing- lay on the brakes- and find that the effort to stop has changed SO much that what I'm used to isn't even close to stopping the car, and you are so scared that you don't think to push harder. Second- hit the off botton- but it doesn't register that you need to hold down for 3 seconds- the adrenalin has just gone overboard. Now your entire car is panicing, and yelling suggestions to what to do- many of which you ARE trying darn it- so your distractions has just gone through the roof.

    Pretend, now, that you would logically and rationally think that I can go into neutral or reverse w/o hurting the car and crashing.

    There's no logical and rational at that point. IIRC, in this case, there's ONE passenger on board who has the idea to call 911, which is pretty darned smart, hoping that OnStar or something remote can shut the car down. Which, of course, it can't.

    Think about it for a while before condemning the driver for laking common sense.

    Eric

    Eric, you are one of the few here that actually gets it. This wasn't some POS with a key and a sticking throttle. It was a near 300HP car that would accel over 100MPH in seconds at freeway speeds. Witnesses described flaming brakes and a vehicle traveling 120+mph. I'm sure the driver(a highway patrol officer) didn't immediately panic and probably tried a number of things to get it stopped. It wasn't him that dialed 911, it was a passenger. The 911 call recording is chilling and tragic. You don't simply "steer into a ditch" or "slam it into neutral"(if it could even be done on that vehicle at those speeds) at 120mph. Your options are very limited at those speeds. Its unreasonable to expect someone to study the manual of a loaner-three second holds of a power button, complicated shift detents,possible drive by wire issues and crawling under the dash at 120mph to rip up a floor mat are not things that most of the clowns(calling the driver stupid) in this post could ever hope to do. Big talking Internet buffoons-you should be ashamed of yourselves. My thoughts are with the officer and his family.

  • Helterskelter

    Oct. 21, 2009 11:09 p.m. Helterskelter Reader

    Why couldn't you put the car in neutral in a panic situation? I mean, unless the car locks it out while at WOT, I see no reason why any person could NOT put it in neutral when other attempts at turning the car off failed? It's clearly labeled and right there in the middle of the center console. Even in a panic situation, I cannot imagine myself forgetting about neutral.

  • captainzib

    Oct. 21, 2009 11:13 p.m. captainzib Reader

    They're referring to how when you slide the shifter to the side it enters the manual override mode. Lawyers would have us believe that in a panic situation, that extra motion is too confusing. I'm not blaming the driver here though, just sayin.

  • 4cylndrfury

    Oct. 22, 2009 6:17 a.m. 4cylndrfury Dork

    xci_ed6 wrote:

    So the problem is, once again, stupid people?

    it ALWAYS is

    "Stupid people" is a lot like "Miata"...always an appropriate answer

  • alfadriver

    Oct. 22, 2009 6:48 a.m. alfadriver HalfDork

    Helterskelter wrote:

    Why couldn't you put the car in neutral in a panic situation? I mean, unless the car locks it out while at WOT, I see no reason why any person could NOT put it in neutral when other attempts at turning the car off failed? It's clearly labeled and right there in the middle of the center console. Even in a panic situation, I cannot imagine myself forgetting about neutral.

    There's no reason you can't. But there's a lot of reasons why someone wouldn't. And I'll still point out two things 1) you THINK you'll do it- and I still bet you'll be so scared that you may forget, and 2) you know that is a solution- how many drivers KNOW that neutral will stop the car from accelerating? For most drivers, N is the letter between R and D, with no real meaning to it. And even if they know that N = neutral, when faced with a life or death panic situation, there's a great chance that it will never cross your mind.

    Eric

  • gjz30075

    Oct. 22, 2009 7:04 a.m. gjz30075 New Reader

    Wow, after reading all this, I knew there was a good reason to stick with my '97 Volvo.

  • Xceler8x

    Oct. 22, 2009 7:33 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

    Those Japanese and their wacky tech ideas.

    Does anyone remember the talking Maxima? Maybe Toyota needs a voice in the car telling you to "calmly hold the start button for 3 seconds to arrest unwanted acceleration. Origato. "

  • Jensenman

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:12 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

    Was the vehicle defective? From what has been released in the news, not in the common usage of the word. Was the driver a complete idiot? Probably not.

    I'm going with the 'tech for tech's sake is idiotic' version. To load a car with fighter plane technology and then to toss the 'fob' to someone who has no idea of what to do in an emergency is just idiotic. Time to haul in the reins.

  • captainzib

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:16 a.m. captainzib Reader

    I used to work for an automotive supplier that among other things designed parking brakes. We were benchmarking a Jag S-Type, and after 2 minutes I couldn't figure out how to disengage the electronic parking brake, so I just gave up and let one of the techs move the car outta the way.

    So tell me, how are you supposed to utilize an electronic parking (emergency) brake in the event of an emergency?

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