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  • carguy123

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:19 a.m. carguy123 Dork

    Jensenman wrote:

    and then to toss the 'fob' to someone

    We are considering selling our Lexus, not due to any of the publiciy, and the main thing we're gonna miss is the FOB. It is amazing how much simpler life is with a FOB. I'd never given a key a thought until I got used to using the FOB.

    I hadn't realized how many times I got to the car with full arms and then had to set everything down to dig out the key or how many times I forgot to pull the key out until I'm sitting in the front seat. I'm gonna miss that little bit of technology.

    BTW Toyota's not the only one with the FOB by a long shot.

  • stuart in mn

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:26 a.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

    thedude wrote: Expecting someone to read the manual of a car which they will have for two days is ridiculous.

    I was thinking about this a couple days ago - I had a rental car (some sort of Kia, I never did figure out exactly what model it was), and when I stopped for gas I finally had to look at the owner's manual to figure out how to get the gas door open. It turned out there was a little secret button hidden on the driver's door below the armrest that you have to push to unlock the gas door.

  • mad_machine

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:44 a.m. mad_machine UberDork

    Of course this brings up a thought that has been absent (and in the back of my mind for a while) right now we live in a golden age of HP. Even your smallest and cheapest grocery getter has over 120hp and once you get into trucks, Mid-size, and sports cars.. the number grows almost exponentially.

    Do we really need 300+ hp on the street? Maybe in a vette, porsche, or other sports oriented car.. but does an appliance that is going to be sold to people who will treat it as an appliance, really need that kind of power? I bet if that lexus had 200hp, it would have been easier to control.

  • Vigo

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:52 a.m. Vigo New Reader

    I hadn't realized how many times I got to the car with full arms and then had to set everything down to dig out the key

    And then had to pick everything back up so you could drive with your arms full?? You have to put that stuff down anyway!

    Ive been through many stupid WOT situations in my clunkers. Sticky cables, sticky throttle shaft bushings, floormats, etc.

    Luckily i have a CLUTCH.

    Ive gone to the effort to explain to my fiancee what to do if her car has 'unintended acceleration', but i think one of the problems in this case is the power of the car.

    I was driving a plain-jane 03 v6 accord the other day thinking to myself how excessive family car power is these days, and that's not even a 'fast' family car.

    Someone who's used to driving a crown vic might well kill themselves in a new v6 camry at wot. A new camry traps about the same in the 1/4 mile as the car i brought to GRM $2009..close to 100 mph.

    I think this was DEFINITELY driver error. Just like that kid who got shot and killed in the subway by 'operator error'... a taser and a pistol look about as similar as a brake pedal and a gas pedal, when you think about it.....

    The thing about running out of power brakes is ONLY if you release the pedal repeatedly. Assuming you have an intact vacuum system without huge leaks (on your new lexus...) if you put the pedal down and keep it there, you have full power brakes. Thats just how it is.

    Shifter's arent hard, true, but consider how much the average driver knows about a shifter. If they know to go to neutral or park AT ALL, it's probably because someone told them, not because they have a clue why or how it does what it does.

    Also, having been a transmission rebuilder for a while, i can tell you that putting it in park would probably not be much different from putting it in neutral at those speeds. The parking pawl will just bounce off repeatedly and never full engage. Some cars wont even let you get into park while moving, just like most of them wont let you out of park without your foot on the brake.

    Anyway, if the brakes were flaming and the car was still going 120, it means you have too much power and not enough brakes in your grandma-mobile, and your brain wadnt up to coming up with any good ideas in the space from 70-120 while dragging the brakes (not instantaneous by any means).

    And there are people all over the country letting their 16-18 year olds borrow their 'plain jane' family car that dont even know for themselves what happens when you put the pedal down because they never get over 3000 rpm (and thus DO NOT need 300 hp).

  • MadScientistMatt

    Oct. 22, 2009 9:58 a.m. MadScientistMatt Dork

    forzav12 wrote: Eric, you are one of the few here that actually gets it. This wasn't some POS with a key and a sticking throttle. It was a near 300HP car that would accel over 100MPH in seconds at freeway speeds. Witnesses described flaming brakes and a vehicle traveling 120+mph.

    When a car has a drive by wire throttle and a brake switch, I cannot think of a single excuse why the programmer would tell the ECU to leave the throttle wide open when the driver applies the brakes hard at 120 mph. After all, who uses left foot braking in a Lexus? If the programmer did anticipate left foot braking, it would make sense for that to only work if the driver had turned off the traction control already.

  • carguy123

    Oct. 22, 2009 10:04 a.m. carguy123 Dork

    Vigo wrote:

    I hadn't realized how many times I got to the car with full arms and then had to set everything down to dig out the key

    And then had to pick everything back up so you could drive with your arms full?? You have to put that stuff down anyway!

    Yes I do, but I put it down INSIDE the car, not on the hood or ground.

  • Vigo

    Oct. 22, 2009 10:06 a.m. Vigo New Reader

    Yes I do, but I put it down INSIDE the car, not on the hood or ground.

    Clearly you need a truck

  • Toyman01

    Oct. 22, 2009 10:27 a.m. Toyman01 HalfDork

    MadScientistMatt wrote:

    forzav12 wrote: Eric, you are one of the few here that actually gets it. This wasn't some POS with a key and a sticking throttle. It was a near 300HP car that would accel over 100MPH in seconds at freeway speeds. Witnesses described flaming brakes and a vehicle traveling 120+mph.

    When a car has a drive by wire throttle and a brake switch, I cannot think of a single excuse why the programmer would tell the ECU to leave the throttle wide open when the driver applies the brakes hard at 120 mph. After all, who uses left foot braking in a Lexus? If the programmer did anticipate left foot braking, it would make sense for that to only work if the driver had turned off the traction control already.

    Have you see how many granny mobiles run down the interstate with the brake lights on. A lot of people drive with their left foot resting on the brake peddle. Then the manufacturers would be getting sued for unintended decelerating.

    On that note, I do believe there should be an obvious way to shut down a run away car. Everyone knows(or should) if you turn the key to off, the car stops. Now we have cars without keys. How about a button labeled Start/Stop or Push to Start/Hold to Stop. A 10 cent label might have avoided 4 deaths. Is it the manufacturers fault? In this litigious day and age, yes. Toyota is going to get their butts burned over these wrecks. They will then come up with a fix and everyone will be safer because of it. Everyone attends the school of hard knocks, even major manufacturers.

    Someone on this board has a signature about designing things for the most ignorant people and their ability to still screw it up. I am confident I could shut down any car, no matter what. But cars need to be built so the dumbest person can shut them down as well. Toyota's sales gimmick bit them in the butt. Now they can fix it.

  • captainzib

    Oct. 22, 2009 10:28 a.m. captainzib Reader

    You raise a good point. Excercise equipment has an emergency "kill" switch, yet cars don't?

    Toyman01 wrote:

    Someone on this board has a signature about designing things for the most ignorant people and their ability to still screw it up. I am confident I could shut down any car, no matter what. But cars need to be built so the dumbest person can shut them down as well. Toyota's sales gimmick bit them in the butt. Now they can fix it.

    Did the signature in question say something like "If we make it idiot-proof, they'll just make a better idiot"?

  • stuart in mn

    Oct. 22, 2009 10:54 a.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

    captainzib wrote: You raise a good point. Exercise equipment has an emergency "kill" switch, yet cars don't?

    This is off topic, but you reminded me of a story...a few years ago I was on a treadmill at the health club, and an older woman got on the treadmill next to me and tried to get it to work. She was pushing buttons for about a minute with no results, and finally she asked me for help.

    I looked over at the display on her treadmill, and I don't know how she did it but she had it set to run at 68 mph! I doubt it would have actually spun that fast, but it was pretty funny to imagine granny trying to keep up when it kicked on. I ended up unplugging the thing from the wall and plugging it back in, which reset the controls.

  • Helterskelter

    Oct. 22, 2009 12:21 p.m. Helterskelter Reader

    Alfa Driver:

    I always respect your opinions on this board, and you always have great contributions. But I feel we gotta disagree on this one. I am absolutely positive I would kick it in neutral in this situation (even under the event of panic), but then I drive a standard so neutral is not a foreign idea to me. I honestly think that someone like a state trooper would be informed enough to know about neutral and the fact that it disengages the engine and transmission. If this was a 16 year old, first time driver (which it certainly could have been), I could see them panicing and not knowing about neutral. Now that leads us to is this Toyota's fault or driver error? If the driver could have easily stopped the car by doing something that, in my opinion, should be standard knowledge for ANYONE who drives (especially a state trooper), I feel this situation is driver error and a lack of rigorous knowledge in our driver's education system. Has anyone crashed a car in countries where having a license isn't such a joke?

  • alfadriver

    Oct. 22, 2009 12:37 p.m. alfadriver HalfDork

    Helterskelter wrote:

    Alfa Driver:

    I always respect your opinions on this board, and you always have great contributions. But I feel we gotta disagree on this one. I am absolutely positive I would kick it in neutral in this situation (even under the event of panic), but then I drive a standard so neutral is not a foreign idea to me. I honestly think that someone like a state trooper would be informed enough to know about neutral and the fact that it disengages the engine and transmission. If this was a 16 year old, first time driver (which it certainly could have been), I could see them panicing and not knowing about neutral. Now that leads us to is this Toyota's fault or driver error? If the driver could have easily stopped the car by doing something that, in my opinion, should be standard knowledge for ANYONE who drives (especially a state trooper), I feel this situation is driver error and a lack of rigorous knowledge in our driver's education system. Has anyone crashed a car in countries where having a license isn't such a joke?

    I hope with 100% certainty that you don't have to ever find out if you would really do the right thing.

    You come at this from a totally different angle- had this been a manual- it would have been a no brainer, just like hitting the clutch. But I'd be willing to bet you don't know that for most modern auto trans cars, going into R and P is just like N- the car will still roll. I do know that. And I still can't honestly predict what I would do. I wasn't there, I don't know the state of panic, I don't know the level of info I needed to process, I don't know the distractions, etc- neither do you.

    Was the driver a state trooper? I didn't hear that part.

    Why is it really important to lay blame? Right now, I honestly can't lay blame with one single source- although I'm sure a court will side with the estate and against Toyota. But the driver should know some degree- they should not expect to know that 3 seconds is the magic lenght to shut the car down. They should know that taking out of D is the righ thing, but I can understand not thinking of it, since #1- the brakes failed, and #2) the car could not be turned off- I honestly can NOT relate to that level of panic to understand how one misses what appears to be obvious- so I just understand that it can happen.

    Really, my point is that we pretend that we would all do the "right thing", and in hindsight, everyone has chosen the right thing to do. I just want to make sure that NONE of us have ever experienced that level of shock and panic and have been expected to "do the right thing". And, again, I REALLY hope none of us do, too.

    Eric

  • tuna55

    Oct. 22, 2009 1:22 p.m. tuna55 Reader

    The last time I got in a rental, I put the cruise on and slid it into neutral to see what would happen.

    Just sayin.

    Let's make this easier on everyone by changing the situation. Country Club boy goes out and buys a Porsche 911. He goes into a corner, lifts and tickles the brakes for whatever reason and the thing comes sliding about. What does he do? Hit the brakes harder. What happens? He hits a tree. Sue Porsche? Come on.

    That's a way better example of how what comes instinctively might not be the right thing to do, and how your instincts can overrule your most brilliant thoughts under the right circumstances. The answer is the same, pure driver error. I've never driven a 911, I would probably hit the brakes harder too, unless I learned otherwise. I would screw it up too, and I would still blame only the driver.

  • Adrian_Thompson

    Oct. 22, 2009 1:39 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    First off I'm 100% with Alfa Driver here so I've got nothing concrete to add to the overall discussion.

    But, people keep mentioning the need to press the start/stop button for 3 seconds and I keep coming back to that. One of the few things I recall from getting my race license (I haven't raced for err 10 years now so forgive me for forgetting) was and anecdote from the instructor about how time warps in an emergency situation. He relayed to us the story of a racer (may even have been himself) who was involved in an accident. The car flipped, rolled and came to rest on it's roof and all was silent so the driver released his harness to climb out. The problem was that the car hadn't yet come to rest, the vehicle was still traveling through the air upside down OFF THE GROUND. In the panic and adrenalin of the situation the drive was sure many many seconds had elapsed since the incident and he could now get out when in fact it was still occurring. We were told to count one one thousand two one thousand etc if we were in the same situation to make sure that didn't happen to us. That was an experience racer who knew what to do. Now, let's get back to this out of control speeding vehicle doing 100 plus mph…. Need I say more? How long would those 3 seconds have been to the poor occupants of the vehicle?

  • carguy123

    Oct. 22, 2009 1:50 p.m. carguy123 Dork

    I pushed my button at speed and if it took 3 seconds to turn the car off it was the fastest 3 seconds I've ever seen.

    It doesn't kill the engine immediately and I'd guess that's so if you accidentally brush the button the car wouldn't stop, but it take a long time either. It was definitely something you could do in an emergency situation.

    NOW I know that, but I didnt' know that before this thread started. I'm sure the driver had no clue

  • Type Q

    Oct. 22, 2009 1:54 p.m. Type Q HalfDork

    I had a throttle stick open one day on the beater Civic I drove in grad school. I had been driving one of Michigan State's FSAE cars that morning so everything felt like it was moving in relative slow motion. I rember clearly thinking calmly, "The throttle is stuck, turn it off." I reached down and turned the key to "off". Had I not been in a super sensitized driving mode, I don't know how I would have reacted.

    It sounds to me like switch with an "on" and "off" position in the dash would make things a lot easier to understand.

  • Oct. 22, 2009 3:14 p.m. kb58 New Reader

    A couple things: Has anyone tried this on the Lexus model in question? I wonder if the computer running the transmission will even allow shifting to neutral under full-throttle. Will it allow it?

    About the 3-second thing. The article mentions that it's to make sure the driver really, really wants to shut it off, because you'll lose power steering and power brakes. If Toyota made it kill the engine when the button's first pressed, then they'd be sued by "loss of control" because grandma accidently bumped the button on the freeway...

    Lastly, I think we should withold second-guessing how trivial it is to solve the situation until we've heard all the facts.... because we're deciding these things with the very important exception that we don't have a car trying to kill us.

  • DILYSI Dave

    Oct. 22, 2009 6:18 p.m. DILYSI Dave UltimaDork

    If I have to pick one problem, I blame the 3 second switch. Switches are supposed to be an electro-mechanical interconnect. If I was driving, pushed it, and it didn't immediately work, I'd have crossed it off of my list of options. The concept of having to hold a button for 3 seconds for it to work is absurd.

    That said, it's still disappointing that the driver couldn't come up with any options other than hold on and fail.

  • MitchellC

    Oct. 22, 2009 6:36 p.m. MitchellC HalfDork

    I think that the best solution is a big, red, 80's computer I/O switch that gives a "click" when the power is cut.

    But I guess I a little distrust for electronic gizmos that affect the ignition. My car, when I got it used, had an aftermarket alarm installed with remote start. It made me paranoid to no end; to this day, I feel like if I use it, I will Awaken The Beast.

  • carzan

    Oct. 22, 2009 8:54 p.m. carzan Reader

    DILYSI Dave wrote:

    If I have to pick one problem, I blame the 3 second switch. Switches are supposed to be an electro-mechanical interconnect. If I was driving, pushed it, and it didn't immediately work, I'd have crossed it off of my list of options. The concept of having to hold a button for 3 seconds for it to work is absurd.

    That said, it's still disappointing that the driver couldn't come up with any options other than hold on and fail.

    I'm with you on the switch thing. I can't think of a single car that couldn't be immediately shut down with the ignition switch at any time prior to this push-button "feature" being introduced. It is beyond reasonable, IMHO, to expect someone to know that without being told.

    However, as far as being disappointed that the driver couldn't come up with any options...disappointing, yes, but hardly surprising. Let's look at the situation: The car wasn't his, it was a loaner. He was not totally familiar with it. This was a BAD time to have to learn its unique features and quirks. He was in rush-hour San Diego traffic. How many people on this board have driven 120 mph in San Diego rush-hour traffic? I'm willing to bet not many. Of those people, how many have driven 120mph in San Diego rush-hour traffic AGAINST THEIR WILL in a car that has every intention of continuing to travel at top speed?!! This guy was a LITTLE PREOCCUPIED with NOT KILLING ANYONE to have a lot of time thinking about where the shift lever was or how long to push in a button. I don't care who you are, at that speed, 3 seconds is a long berkeleying time to push buttons, or look away from the road and/or find a control while your arms are flailing trying to steer in hopes that yet another moron won't switch lanes in front of you as you come at them in your semi-guided missile. I willing to bet he took most of the life out of the brakes trying to keep the speed of the car down in the first few miles. By the time he realized that pulling the car off the road and stopping was the only option, it was too late, the brakes didn't have enough left to do the job. The power and momentum were too much for the already overheated brakes. Then there was the fact that he had passengers...his own family. This had to add to the emotional factor. Seeing his family in panic and likely screaming had to be horribly unnerving. Adding to the commotion in the car and the roar of the rampaging engine, I would bet there was quite a bit of noise and vibration from what was left of the brakes. He could probably barely hear himself think. Agreeing with kb58, I have to wonder if the CPU will allow the transmission to shift into neutral regardless of the position of the lever at that speed. This guy had a lot going against him. In my book, he is a hero for not killing anyone prior to the highway running out.

  • Adrian_Thompson

    Oct. 23, 2009 7:36 a.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

    carzan wrote: In my book, he is a hero for not killing anyone prior to the highway running out.

    That should be the perfect end to this thread.

  • Vigo

    Oct. 23, 2009 10:37 a.m. Vigo New Reader

    too bad it isnt :p

    if you turn the key to off, the car stops.

    It only stops accelerating.. in an auto car its not even gonna give you much engine braking. So this was only part of the solution. Getting the shifter into neutral is WAY faster than holding a button down for 3 seconds. My mazda3 has a stupid zig zag shifter and when i am in a hurry i just wobble the thing side to side while jamming it forward until it does what i want. It works in the space of 1 second without any skill or eye contact.

    But i am a mechanic. I have driven a lot of cars. For all we know this tropper DID try to shift it, but nobody pieced together the fact that the windshield wiper arm was torn off in his hand to the fact that he drives an antique crown vic (in all likelihood) for a living. Noone among the press would think to point that out.. There have been times when i was stopping hard in an auto and i jammed the imaginary clutch pedal to the floor. I have reached for shifters that werent there out of habit. Funny stuff happens. It never took one one thousand two one thousand three one thousand to figure out where they were, and i have never forgotten where the brake pedal was or where the steering wheel was, cuz they're always in the same place.. Luckily, though, most of the commuter appliances ive driven didnt have more engine than brakes (dont all the stories we normally hear about that come from the 1960s? seriously).. but hey in a lexus you gotta be paying for something, right?

    I mean, i know in europe everyone driving a bmw 5-series with a 1.8l hates themselves because they didnt get the huge power level to go with their badge...right? :p

  • Duke

    Oct. 23, 2009 10:53 a.m. Duke SuperDork

    I'm not going to belittle their deaths, but if he had long enough to light the brakes on fire and someone could think to call 911 and talk to them, somebody in that car could have slapped it into neutral.

    If we were talking 3 seconds, I agree, that's a lot of thinking to get done in a hurry and I doubt I could do it. But how long was this event going on? Way more than that if the brakes overheated to the point of flames.

  • captainzib

    Oct. 23, 2009 11:49 a.m. captainzib Reader

    Was talkin about this with a buddy of mine, and yeah, neutral sounds like the best bet, but if you want to stop a car with a dramatic flair, shifting into reverse and grenading the trans is a hell of a way to do it. Granted if the thought of throwing it in neutral didn't pop into the guy's head, reverse didn't stand a chance.

  • Vigo

    Oct. 23, 2009 12:07 p.m. Vigo New Reader

    Most new cars wont even go into reverse while moving like that. Also if you lock up the front wheels with the drivetrain theres nothing the ABS can do about that..You lose all steering control at 120 mph.

    but yeh im with duke.. 70-120 while dragging the brakes is a good while, even in a fast car.

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