Track Car Debate

I am planning to get into driving more than the occasional autocross drive with my daily driver. My goal is to have a street legal car to run regular autocross and entry level road course events. The debate is between reworking my old Z28, which has been paid off for years, or buying a newer car with higher intrinsic capabilities like a stingray or GT350.
I feel like the older car may be fun because the cost of pushing it to the outer edge of it's capabilities,and then screwing up, would be far less than with a new car. It also may fail because it is older and it may not respond well to being pushed. A newer car may have more power and grip but the cost of screwing it up is far greater.

Which one can you afford to wreck?

Are you comfortable driving 80%? You can certainly track an expensive car and not wreck it. What is hard to do is try to learn to get properly fast in a car you're worried about wrecking.
Incidentally, the idea that you get a car that you're comfortable wrecking it terrifying. Wrecking is dangerous for you and everyone else on track.

What kind of Z28 are we talking about? How much money would you be willing to put into the Z28? What does it already have done to it? Do you like driving it how it is? Do you plan on starting smoking crack (using R-comps) or do you want to stick with real street tires?

mazdeuce wrote: Are you comfortable driving 80%? You can certainly track an expensive car and not wreck it. What is hard to do is try to learn to get properly fast in a car you're worried about wrecking. Incidentally, the idea that you get a car that you're comfortable wrecking it terrifying. Wrecking is dangerous for you and everyone else on track.

+1000 I once passed a guy on track driving a then brand new Porsche Cayman, when I was in my turbo Miata. He came over to look at my car later, and besides being relieved that he hadn't been passed by a stock Miata, commented that the cost of the car was slowing him down. As he said, he could afford the Cayman, but he couldn't afford another one.

So once again, the answer is the Answer. For an acceptable amount you can buy a Miata, set it up however you like for autocross and track use. And if you push too hard one day, it isn't the end of the world. I can't fathom having the coin to track a $70,000 car knowing just how expensive a trash could be.

I don't even like autocrossing a car that still has payments. Stuff can (and will) happen.

BMW if you don't want to go as small as a Miata.

In reply to mazdeuce: Wrecking may be an overstatement. Even a slight off track excursion or spin may be enough to cause significant damage to a car.
In my experience with autocross I may have clipped a cone or two in multiple runs, with a large sedan. Running with my buddy I'm his Miata he encouraged me to push it. The limit is not defined until it is reached. My intention is not to wreck but to be mentally prepared for the consequences.

Thanks for your insight. Pushing a more capable car at 80% of it's capabilities could net better times than an older car modified and pushed to the limit.

In reply to drdisque: It is a 2000 with an LS1, M6, borla exhaust and a cold air intake. I bought it in 02 with 12k miles and parked it a few years ago with just under 100k. I run it every couple of months. I priced out the mods at about 10k. All chasis, suspension, brakes and tires. Given the limited amount of nanny devices it is a visceral experience to drive. I'm not planning on power mods any time soon. In a basic stock form it would handle much better than folks would tend to think. It was just twitchy with the live axle.

I would stick with the z28 for a variety of reasons.

In reply to KyAllroad: Thanks. My buddy has one and I have had a couple of gen 1 RX7s but I prefer a torque-y car. If I did go small it would be back to an old RX7. The car was slick and had great ergonomics. When I first bought a gen4 camaro I was looking at RX8s and preferred the layout of the camaro as it reminded me of a larger version of my old RX7.

In reply to calteg: That is the problem... As was stated elwhere I could run the nicer car at 80% but as someone else mentioned, and I have witnessed, the do-do do happen....

If you Buy A GT 350 (Shelby?)you won't want to take it out of the Barn Much less race it. Go ahead and Kill the Camaro.

In reply to calteg: That is the problem... As was stated elwhere I could run the nicer car at 80% but as someone else mentioned, and I have witnessed, the do-do do happen....

How often are you going to track your car? If you're only doing it once in a while, I'd think the smart decision is to go with the car that's going to serve you best the other 360+ days out of the year. And yes, be sure you can afford to walk away from it if you wreck it.

Exocet

10k into a car you already own and know or a 50-70k car you don't and might wad up? That's simple, camaro.

try not to get scope creep and just run the camaro as is and then see what it needs? Koni,watts, blah blah you can have fun in stages for much cheaper than a new gt350 or corvette. Expecially when it's broke or wrecked.

I'd use the Camaro.

I'd say go with the Camaro. It's the devil you know.

Put me on the camaro bandwagon. Its already got an awesome engine and trans. Its already got pretty big brakes and it fits big rubber, the aftermarket support is huge, and it comes equipped with best option on earth, it's already paid for.

I dont know that I would jump right into a 10k build. I would probably just upgrade pads and synthetic brake fliud, and go through the suspension to make sure everything is in good shape. Then go run it a few times before you start laying down big coin. Remember that track days aren't races, they are just a chance to go drive fast on the track. So spending a pile of money to make your car a few seconds faster doesn't really gain you anything. Especially if it makes your car undriveable on the road.

In 10 tears of track days, maybe 20 events I have seen three wrecks. All were at non HPDE events. Point being, anyone who has not done a track day would be wise to start with an HPDE event.

I know this thread is more about which car but the wrecking thing is foremost. Drivers cause the wrecks 99.9% of the time. So regardless of which car, driver education is paramount.

I've got a 98 Camaro that now serves as my secondary fun car/auto x car. I'm hoping to get out to 1 or 2 HPDEs as well this year.

Put me down as another vote for keeping it. No way do you need to spend $10k to have fun in that car. Shocks, springs, sways, and an alignment will go a long, long ways towards improving the handling. You can fit an absurd amount of rubber under it as well, like 305s all around with minimal massaging of the inner fenderwell in the rear. I'd recommend a PS cooler as well, its common for the overboosted pump to boil the fluid during auto x events.

4th Gen Camaro is a fairly nice platform for track and autocross...if you don't mind a somewhat slow car with respect to its reflexes, due to it being kind of a PIG...it grips and turns in well but not that great in transitional response - not too bad overall though. I bought the lightest version way back when, '98 V6 hardtop with 5 speed manual...being stock with ~67k miles, it was in pretty horrible shape - shocks were horrible as was that nasty shifter, autocrossed it once as I bought it (besides fluid changes) - tires were hitting the fenders/wheel wells in the back and it was a handful being squirrely and loose. Spent the money and updated the suspension (Koni shocks, stock springs, Hotchkiss anti-roll bar set, full tubular and spherical bearing rear arms/link components), brake pads/rotors, shifter (Hurst Competition Plus unit), gutted interior and added rollbar, lightweight racing seats/harness...overall got it down to right near 3200lbs on a full tank, less driver.

It was very buttoned down running on 275/45-17 Nitto 555RII mounted to 17x9.5 Z06 replica wheels, just too slow for me in regards to transitional responsiveness. The '90 Integra RS track car I also had at the time just was just as fast but way more fun and responsive - it weighed just over 2300lbs full fuel level, less driver and was transformed into a transitional handling monster...first autocross after a rear suspension tweak to the trailing arm bushings (3M windoweld) it was eating cones from turning in too quickly until I got use to it and its tail happy nature. The Integra was set up to be pretty almost as responsive as the FR-S is, just with less stability. I will say that Camaro had the most awesome brake setup I've ever had on a car, flat out brought the car down to a stop like nothing while just throwing you to the windshield and trying to pull your eyes out of their sockets...stripped V6 model lightness + brake system same as the V8's with track rated pads and softer Brembo rotors = high G deceleration and no fade issues. More than once I found myself over braking for a turn and having to speed up on corner entry...just way too easy to do with that car.

I will highly recommend upgrading the powersteering pump; that is a WILL FAIL item for a 4th Gen Camaro used in any type of hard cornering scenarios. Mine failed coming into the pits after a track session...didn't notice it much until slowing down to turn in...OMG-heavy car with 275 width DOT-R rubber, slowish rack, and small diameter racing steering wheel...yeah that was fun drive home - steering wheel was actually flexing and nearly bending in my hands from the force required to turn the wheel. Replaced the stock pump with a TurnOne reduced unit, highly recommended. Power steering cooler would be a necessity if you don't - no matter how good a fluid you run in the stock unit, it will boil over from a single autocross run. At least it did for me using top spec fluid.

I'd keep the Camaro and mod it unless you'd rather switch to a smaller, lighter, and more nimble platform. For what it is, it's hard to beat a Camaro from a price/handling perspective for an ~3,400lb car...the main thing I hated was any engine/transmission work is a royal pain due to how the motor and transmission is shoved into the chassis/transmission tunnel. If you have a lift it makes it more feasible and less of a headache. Dropping the whole front assembly (engine/transmission/suspension as one unit) is the absolute easiest way to do it. Suspension work is nice and straight forward though..

I think the Z28 built for STP or CAMC, or even ESP would be a lot more fun than a new car.

Although I talked to a guy with a very competitive 4th gen Camaro in ESP and the car is great - other than all the stress from the giant R-comps is constantly destroying front hubs. There's an easy fix, but Street Prepared rules don't allow alternate hubs. He's written a rules proposal to the SPAC and gets shot down every time, even though having aftermarket or alternate hubs is in no way a performance benefit and would only be a "must have" on cars that are already constantly destroying hubs like his.

Contrary to ice racer, I've been to 10 track days and have seen 15ish cars balled up (all so-cal tracks for whatever its worth). Always have track insurance or a car you can walk away from imo.

This is from mobile, but hopefully the link works.

https://goo.gl/photos/SrQZUuSeQzTpCziW7

Others I've seen include a brand new GT-R, a corvette c7, a new Challenger, and a BR-Z.