I'm wondering if I should upgrade the OEM pads on the Abarth for next month's event. Aside from this, probably one more event at Mid Ohio in September for Car Fest. Otherwise, some autocrosses and that's it. No planned regular track days.
Should I bother for 1-2 times? Plenty of pad left (I think) at 34k miles, and I would have someone else install so $ is a factor.
I shredded a brand new set of StopTech performance pads down to almost nothing in two days of six 20-minute sessions at Road America, and that was on an E46 BMW with rather large brakes. If yours already have 34k you should absolutely replace them first.
High-speed track events are extremely hard on brakes, if you start running them frequently you will notice that a lot of people put new pads on when they arrive at the track and then swap back to street pads when they leave. If you are running street pads at the event, there's a good chance you're going to burn them up even if they're brand new. Knowing that, I would definitely not run street pads that already have 34k on them!
Well, Mid Ohio has some speed to it, and hauling a car down from big speed does tend to eat pads. Some mildly aggressive track pads, like a PFC-08 or other endurance pad, certainly couldn't hurt, and you might like the modest increase in braking torque they offer.
But, is an Abarth lighter than pointofdeparture's E46? My heavy E92 M3 eats track pads pretty fast, but my light '79 3-series coupe has brake pads the size of a pack of JuciyFruit, and a set of track pads last forever.
I don't know about you, but when I started learning to track drive, I did not alternately floor the throttle and threshold brake at the last minute like I do now. I was busy learning how to judge my turn in speed and see the apex/track out, so I braked earlier and more gently so I could transition to the turn with focus.
So, my experience was that I did fine on a big track like VIR in a heavy car (E92 M3) on StopTech Street Performance pads. I never had the least bit of fade, or any other problems. I could leave them on year-round if I wanted (and I pretty much did). I think I used them for two full summers, about five weekends each, before I got my game leveled up enough that I was limited by street tires and those pads. One set of rears lasted me that whole time, with street driving thrown in, but I think I used about a set and a half of fronts.
Don't neglect to change the fluid! If you pay up and get the Motul RB600, it's good for a year under your circumstances.
Are they requiring brake fluid that is less than 30 days old? I would definitely put new brake fluid in before an event like that. It is also a good plan to have tools and fluid ready to bleed them at the track if needed.
I should also add that next month will be my first ever track event, so probably not very aggressive, and it's at Putnam Park in IN. The Car Fest thing is at Mid Ohio in September.
So with that in mind, still replace? And if so, recommendations? I know a Miata friend went with Hawk (somethings) recently for autocross.
In reply to Jerry:
I would absolutely replace to be on the safe side. Whether it is your first event or not, you will still be doing more high-speed brake use in quick succession than the car has probably ever seen before.
StopTech Street Performance pads are a great streetable track pad in my experience. RockAuto even has 'em. They are (relatively) cheap and a good step up from a stock pad in fade resistance without needing to be warmed up like a race pad. Only downside is they dust a fair bit.
Not only OEM pads, but old OEM pads? Yeah, replace them with something sporty that will have a fair shot at surviving at the track.
I've got EBC Yellowstuff on my car, they're supposed to be a good compromise between a street and track pad. They're quite civilized on the street, I haven't done a track day on them yet (fresh engine failed before I could), but they seem to be wearing like iron so far and they take repeated hard stops from extralegal speeds like it's nothing (which was enough to turn street pads into goo). I hear they wear out rotors quickly though.
How badly the brakes get cooked seems to depend partly on car weight, but a lot on power vs grip vs brake size. A car with lots of power, decent grip and small brakes will be much harder on the brakes than the same weight car with a bit more grip and less power, as the second car will have a lot less speed to dispose of before a corner.
JBasham wrote: I don't know about you, but when I started learning to track drive, I did not alternately floor the throttle and threshold brake at the last minute like I do now. I was busy learning how to judge my turn in speed and see the apex/track out, so I braked earlier and more gently so I could transition to the turn with focus.
Lengthening the braking zones actually makes it worse.
Slowing from 100 to 40 (in 100m or 200m) puts the exact same amount of energy into the rotors. However, doing it slowly means the brakes have less time to shed heat between braking events.
FYI, StopTech has re-named them the "Sport Pad". Love mine on my 2400lb car.
Put some Porterfield R-4's on for the track and swap back the OEM afterwards. Change the brake fluid with some hi temp stuff like ATE or similar. But really who needs brakes? Brakes are for quitters, right?
z31maniac wrote:JBasham wrote: I don't know about you, but when I started learning to track drive, I did not alternately floor the throttle and threshold brake at the last minute like I do now. I was busy learning how to judge my turn in speed and see the apex/track out, so I braked earlier and more gently so I could transition to the turn with focus.Lengthening the braking zones actually makes it worse. Slowing from 100 to 40 (in 100m or 200m) puts the exact same amount of energy into the rotors. However, doing it slowly means the brakes have less time to shed heat between braking events.
In my particular case it didn't turn out that way, but I'm a sample of one. Maybe the thermodynamics of the transaction did not correlate with the amount of pad material removed.
rslifkin wrote: How badly the brakes get cooked seems to depend partly on car weight, but a lot on power vs grip vs brake size. A car with lots of power, decent grip and small brakes will be much harder on the brakes than the same weight car with a bit more grip and less power, as the second car will have a lot less speed to dispose of before a corner.
Well, it didn't seem nice to suggest his Abarth was down on power. Or that it might have any reason to be insecure about size down in the braking department or the grip area.
The Abarth weighs just a touch more than my '79 3 series, has the same horsepower as mine, and has bigger brakes. I don't know it's skidpad numbers but I would be surprised if it materially exceeds the 1.2g the '79 will pull. You're right, though, every car is different, and it may turn out to be a pad eater after all.
JBasham wrote:rslifkin wrote: How badly the brakes get cooked seems to depend partly on car weight, but a lot on power vs grip vs brake size. A car with lots of power, decent grip and small brakes will be much harder on the brakes than the same weight car with a bit more grip and less power, as the second car will have a lot less speed to dispose of before a corner.Well, it didn't seem nice to suggest his Abarth was down on power. Is it half the E46 M3?
I wasn't saying anything about the Abarth in particular. I was saying that just being lighter than an E46 doesn't mean it'll be easier on its smaller brakes. If it's as well powered as the E46 (proportionally), it might actually be harder on the smaller Fiat brakes.
Ah, I understand. I was saying something about the Abarth in particular.
JBasham wrote:z31maniac wrote:In my particular case it didn't turn out that way, but I'm a sample of one. Maybe the thermodynamics of the transaction did not correlate with the amount of pad material removed.JBasham wrote: I don't know about you, but when I started learning to track drive, I did not alternately floor the throttle and threshold brake at the last minute like I do now. I was busy learning how to judge my turn in speed and see the apex/track out, so I braked earlier and more gently so I could transition to the turn with focus.Lengthening the braking zones actually makes it worse. Slowing from 100 to 40 (in 100m or 200m) puts the exact same amount of energy into the rotors. However, doing it slowly means the brakes have less time to shed heat between braking events.
No, you just weren't getting close to the limits of the pad in either scenario.
Hahahahah! No DOUBT! It's my goal in life to have brakes be the limiting factor on my lap times. And also, to have to worry about the FDIC's $250,000 deposit insurance limit.
But seriously, when it comes to pad wear, doesn't the friction create the heat? And isn't the friction what reduces the pad, with secondary effects from the heat generated? And is the function of momentum reduction to time completely linear?
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