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Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Used Cars vs. Hybrids: What's greener? 1 2 3

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  Jan. 24, 2012 3:10 p.m. oldopelguy Dork

  The same inefficiencies in the big plants caused by reducing power at night are also caused by the wind picking up and those dumb windmills spontaneously producing more power at random times. I'm fine with folks paying for wind power, but I should get to shut off their lights when the wind stops and turn all of them on remotely when it gusts up.
  

  That said, adding a large volume of plugged-in hybrids/electrics could help, except that if we pulled power out of them (or had a low wind night) you might wake up to a dead battery due to the morning load peak and not be able to drive to work.

  As to the original direction of this thread, the comparison needs to be between a used car and a new hybrid. The fuel costs are obvious, same with their emissions, but how do you compare the impact value of a used car? Do you use what it would "cost" to recycle it? Or do you use some pro-rate of the initial construction impacts? Do you call it end of life already since it is already "post consumer?" What about repair parts?
  

  With so many viable options, how could anyone avoid biasing the results? I think finding any real data will be impossible.

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 4:05 p.m. DaewooOfDeath Dork

  mguar wrote:

  You need to educate them.. Prove your hypothesis. Define what you mean by better..

  Better actual mileage, lower costs.

  You would have an extremely tough sell here in Minnesota.. Diesels do not perform well in sub zero temps.. Getting them started when temps are below zero is a major hassle requiring long extension cords that are easily stolen, either, anti gelling additives, and other tricks..

  Diesels sell very well in places like Scandanavia, so they must have figured something out.

  The few diesels that get acceptable mileage and are imported tend to have very poor reliability ratings.. Not to mention the price difference between diesel and gasoline.. while the diesel might get 10MPG better (remember most college students drive relatively short trips and almost no highway mileage) diesels higher cost per gallon and hassles starting on cold mornings will cost you the argument..

  VW and Mercedes make very nice new diesels. The TDI has been a very good engine for a long time. It also gets significantly better mileage than a comparable Prius while not requiring anywhere near the cash outlay in the used car market.

  I would also recommend something like a new Elantra over a hybrid. Once again, better or comparable real world economy, cheaper, simpler, easier to service, less sucky to drive.

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 4:33 p.m. DaveEstey Dork

  Your definition of "real world economy" needs some perspective. Our Prius averages 48 mpg year round. During the summer, when the engine doesn't have to run to provide heat, my average is 54 mpg. With ZERO extra effort.

  If I tried some basic hyper miling I can and have broken 60 mpg over the course of several hundred miles.

  The VW products are priced similarly to the Prius, but pay an average of 40 cents more per gallon of diesel, that's spending moremoney, not less. Merc doesn't make anything close to the cost of a Prius and has the added cost of urea injection, again, more money.

  As for cheaper, easier to service. I'm well over 90k miles with simple oil changes. You can't get easier than that. Now go compare Toyota's reliability ratings to Volkswagen's. One of these things is not like the other.

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 4:47 p.m. ProDarwin SuperDork

  Ugh, here we go again.

  Real world data: Elantra - 30.5mpg Prius - 47.6

  Those #s are from 2011 model year cars, both with >600K miles reported.

  That's 56% better.

  http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius http://www.fuelly.com/car/hyundai/elantra

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 6:25 p.m. mguar Reader

  oldopelguy wrote:

  The same inefficiencies in the big plants caused by reducing power at night are also caused by the wind picking up and those dumb windmills spontaneously producing more power at random times. I'm fine with folks paying for wind power, but I should get to shut off their lights when the wind stops and turn all of them on remotely when it gusts up.
  

  That said, adding a large volume of plugged-in hybrids/electrics could help, except that if we pulled power out of them (or had a low wind night) you might wake up to a dead battery due to the morning load peak and not be able to drive to work.

  As to the original direction of this thread, the comparison needs to be between a used car and a new hybrid. The fuel costs are obvious, same with their emissions, but how do you compare the impact value of a used car? Do you use what it would "cost" to recycle it? Or do you use some pro-rate of the initial construction impacts? Do you call it end of life already since it is already "post consumer?" What about repair parts?
  

  With so many viable options, how could anyone avoid biasing the results? I think finding any real data will be impossible.

  I like the questions you are asking.. it shows a great deal of thought.

  The first question is new versus used.. Well at some time all used cars were new so in reality isn't it a moot point? There isn't an infinite supply of used cars..

  Second to compare apples to oranges won't supply you with any real truth.. There are after all used Hybrids out there.. I've sold a few myself.. An interesting perspective is the gap between used hybrids and used cars is smaller than you would suspect.. I place that on the mis-information out there. That the battery pack only lasts a few years not potentially decades..

  Third your unrealistic suggestion that somehow plugging in a bunch of Hybrids would cause the power grid to fail simply does not take into consideration the flexibility of modern power grids. Why would plugging in a Hybrid cause any more drain on the power grid system than turning on a stove or an air conditioner? If the batteries of a Hybrid were dead that would not prevent the car from starting.. It has it's own 12V starting battery. The engine would start and driving would recharge the hybrids batteries..

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 6:38 p.m. mguar Reader

  DaewooOfDeath wrote:

  mguar wrote:

  You need to educate them.. Prove your hypothesis. Define what you mean by better..

  Better actual mileage, lower costs.

  You would have an extremely tough sell here in Minnesota.. Diesels do not perform well in sub zero temps.. Getting them started when temps are below zero is a major hassle requiring long extension cords that are easily stolen, either, anti gelling additives, and other tricks..

  Diesels sell very well in places like Scandanavia, so they must have figured something out.

  The few diesels that get acceptable mileage and are imported tend to have very poor reliability ratings.. Not to mention the price difference between diesel and gasoline.. while the diesel might get 10MPG better (remember most college students drive relatively short trips and almost no highway mileage) diesels higher cost per gallon and hassles starting on cold mornings will cost you the argument..

  VW and Mercedes make very nice new diesels. The TDI has been a very good engine for a long time. It also gets significantly better mileage than a comparable Prius while not requiring anywhere near the cash outlay in the used car market.

  I would also recommend something like a new Elantra over a hybrid. Once again, better or comparable real world economy, cheaper, simpler, easier to service, less sucky to drive.

  Well Volkswagen has a very poor reliability rating by most of the consumer magazines.. Same with Mercedes.. (not to mention the extremely high cost of their service).. when you add fuel that may be anywhere from 40-50 cents per gallon more than gasoline the added fuel mileage is pretty well washed away..

  The dealership I worked at recently sold a used Honda Hybrid.. 2 years old and it sold for a small fraction of what a used Mercedes Diesel would sell for.. In FACT ONLY A MODEST INCREASE IN PRICE OVER A SIMILAR GAS HONDA.. What cemented the deal was the factory warranty remaining.. A few weeks before that we also sold a Nissan Hybrid. Used Hybrids are out there and don't command anywhere near what their potential savings on fuel costs would be. (Blame that on misinformation and ignorance)

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 7:01 p.m. oldopelguy Dork

  mguar wrote:

  Third your unrealistic suggestion that somehow plugging in a bunch of Hybrids would cause the power grid to fail simply does not take into consideration the flexibility of modern power grids.

  I think you mis-read what I typed. I know all too well how the grid works, it's what I do for a living. I never suggested plugging in hybrids or electrics would bring down the grid. Quite the contrary.

  In my balancing area, for example, we have typically 2500-3000MW of load on any given day. We can supply 1200MW or so with hydro, we have a 60MW share of one nuclear plant, and the balance is coal, diesel, gas or up to 1500MW of wind. Our typical MO is to set a base with the fossil units, adjusted every hour, then spend the whole day chasing the wind around with the hydro units. Problem is we also have to chase load around too. Imagine trying to fill a moving bucket with a firehose that has random pressure surges. This means that the fossil units change base loading entirely based on how hard the wind is blowing, and that we can't get fully loaded on hydro because we have to have enough reserve for small surges in wind.
  

  The common assumption from a distribution standpoint is that eventually there will be household support for charging these vehicles quickly at home. Typically that assumes a beefed up supply to the house and dedicated charging for the car hooked up to the type of metering that would allow the car to charge at night and off-peak when the rates are the lowest and the grid needs the load. Most also then assume the same metering might also allow the battery packs in the cars to be used to "sell" power back to the grid when the rates are higher during the peak. The consumer gets "paid" for their power storage.

  I assumed we all were up to speed on that much of the infrastructure planned to support these future plug-in hybrid and electric cars would be using. With that as a basis, I was suggesting that it will take a massive amount of that type of storage to provide any real-world dampening for the unreliable surges wind farms are already taxing the grid with.
  

  Adding in some storage capacity would allow the load side movement to dampen out a bit, which would help. Downside is that if we actually use the stored energy in the car batteries to help, then by definition there will be times you go out to your car and the battery is depleted. If it was an electric, you would not be able to use it.

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 7:19 p.m. mguar Reader

  oldopelguy wrote:

  mguar wrote:

  Third your unrealistic suggestion that somehow plugging in a bunch of Hybrids would cause the power grid to fail simply does not take into consideration the flexibility of modern power grids.

  I think you mis-read what I typed. I know all too well how the grid works, it's what I do for a living. I never suggested plugging in hybrids or electrics would bring down the grid. Quite the contrary.

  In my balancing area, for example, we have typically 2500-3000MW of load on any given day. We can supply 1200MW or so with hydro, we have a 60MW share of one nuclear plant, and the balance is coal, diesel, gas or up to 1500MW of wind. Our typical MO is to set a base with the fossil units, adjusted every hour, then spend the whole day chasing the wind around with the hydro units. Problem is we also have to chase load around too. Imagine trying to fill a moving bucket with a firehose that has random pressure surges. This means that the fossil units change base loading entirely based on how hard the wind is blowing, and that we can't get fully loaded on hydro because we have to have enough reserve for small surges in wind.
  

  The common assumption from a distribution standpoint is that eventually there will be household support for charging these vehicles quickly at home. Typically that assumes a beefed up supply to the house and dedicated charging for the car hooked up to the type of metering that would allow the car to charge at night and off-peak when the rates are the lowest and the grid needs the load. Most also then assume the same metering might also allow the battery packs in the cars to be used to "sell" power back to the grid when the rates are higher during the peak. The consumer gets "paid" for their power storage.

  I assumed we all were up to speed on that much of the infrastructure planned to support these future plug-in hybrid and electric cars would be using. With that as a basis, I was suggesting that it will take a massive amount of that type of storage to provide any real-world dampening for the unreliable surges wind farms are already taxing the grid with.
  

  Adding in some storage capacity would allow the load side movement to dampen out a bit, which would help. Downside is that if we actually use the stored energy in the car batteries to help, then by definition there will be times you go out to your car and the battery is depleted. If it was an electric, you would not be able to use it.

  I like your analogy of trying to fill a moving bucket with a fire hose.. Good description of what you do..

  From what I understand you have computers that help you predict energy needs based on past experience and predictions of future demands.. ( I used to sell equipment to power plants and probably understand better than most the challenges that you face..

  OK To the best of my research in the field no hybrid or electric has the capability of reversing it's power back into the grid.. I've heard a few mentioned but to date no-one has it as of yet..
  As far as beefed up requirements for a home? Only if the house is old and woefully short of capacity as it stands.. My house has 400 amp service and while that may seem like a lot it's similar to what my neighbors have with similar sized homes.. (5500 sq.ft.) I'll grant you most new homes are in the 150-200 amp size but you'd need to go to something like a less than 100 amp service to not be able to charge the batteries overnight..

  Here in Minnesota we are blessed with an abundance of electrical energy.. So much so that many of the wind generators are passing birthdays without connection to the grid.. In fact we recently turned down the construction of additional power plants..

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 7:54 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  ProDarwin wrote:

  Somehow this discussion got way off track... the article was about Hybrid vs. non-hybrid used car (not plug-ins, not electrics).
  

  The article linked to the detailed article of their test vehicle: the prototype of the 2012 Prius Plug-In Hybrid. I took the statistics directly from their article. It specifically cited the percentages of time it ran off the power from the grid.

• 

  Jan. 24, 2012 8:07 p.m. ProDarwin SuperDork

  oldopelguy wrote:

  I assumed we all were up to speed on that much of the infrastructure planned to support these future plug-in hybrid and electric cars would be using. With that as a basis, I was suggesting that it will take a massive amount of that type of storage to provide any real-world dampening for the unreliable surges wind farms are already taxing the grid with.
  

  Adding in some storage capacity would allow the load side movement to dampen out a bit, which would help. Downside is that if we actually use the stored energy in the car batteries to help, then by definition there will be times you go out to your car and the battery is depleted. If it was an electric, you would not be able to use it.

  This is getting well outside my realm of expertise, but its nice to have a discussion on the subject. How massive would the storage need to be? Lets say, well in the future, that most homes have a single PHEV (lets say ~16kwhr) vehicle plugged in (I'm assuming that if nobody is home, the house isn't drawing much electricity). Is that enough to dampen the effect? Is it the storage capacity of the battery that presents the issue, or the rate at which it can be discharged when needed?
  

  Additionally, how much of an impact does this have on you guys (power industry in general)? If there is energy savings to be had - could a rebate/discount be offered to customers that install their own approved battery-banks (which could be of many different types as weight is a non-issue) in their home? I know I recall reading about manufacturing plants that do this with capacitors on a much shorter time scale to help them maintain a power factor of 1.0 or as close as possible.

  On a similar note... does anyone make a kit to turn a hybrid car into a generator? Where I live power can go out during a big storm relatively frequently. I rent, so don't feel like buying a generator - especially a $Texas 20kw genset like my neighbors all seem to have. Wouldn't a Prius or Fusion (i.e. non-series hybrid), running in the driveway be able to support a moderate energy draw from a home during "emergency" situations?

• 

  Jan. 25, 2012 7:24 a.m. mguar Reader

  In reply to ProDarwin: I can only answer one of your questions.. 20 kw is massive overkill for a gen set for the home.. 10kw will operate everything in a 3500sq.ft. or less sized home and most of my neighbors have a 5KW genset and do very well even though the average sized home is over 5000 sq, ft. With the hyper abundance of gensets in that size due to the past construction boom I've seen those in good operating condition sell for a few hundred dollars.. (do yourself a favor and buy one powered by a Honda engine rather than Briggs and Straton or Tucumsha. The Honda is better, more reliable, and quieter.)

  While in theory powering a home with the Hybrid it's not available yet and poses some real complications if attempted.. The real issue would be what happens when the power comes back on?

  If you are back feeding the grid (which is what happens if you simply plug a genset into your home's wiring) you put the lineman who's come to repair your power at grave risk..

  Most prudent linemen would detect the back feed and simply move on to the next disconnect.. Leaving you without power until they have the time to come back and find the source of the back feed and then disconnect you. However should a lineman be electrocuted due to your improper connection I suspect that you would be in a world of legal trouble.. All that is a way to tell you there is a right way and a wrong way to power your house with a genset.

• 

  Jan. 25, 2012 7:54 a.m. ProDarwin SuperDork

  I understand 20kw is massive overkill. Lets just say that my neighbors dont live in 3500sq ft houses. Try 10,000+

  Anyways, 5kw from a hybrid parked in my driveway would make me more than happy. Hell 2kw to run some light bulbs and my fridge would be sweet.
  

  mguar wrote: While in theory powering a home with the Hybrid it's not available yet and poses some real complications if attempted.. The real issue would be what happens when the power comes back on?

  This is easy. Power goes off, plug in hybrid to "backfeed", flip switch in emergency breaker panel "power co." over to "supplemental power". Your other breaker panel would still get power from the power-co and when the power comes back on, lights/whatever on that circuit would kick back in. Then you go back to your breaker panel and flip it back to hybrid/supplemental/etc.

  Or just use whatever detection system a home backup genset uses.

• 

  Jan. 25, 2012 9:19 a.m. Datsun1500 SuperDork

  ProDarwin wrote:

  Somehow this discussion got way off track... the article was about Hybrid vs. non-hybrid used car (not plug-ins, not electrics).
  

  I think the big issue with the used ones is no one has come up with a way to get the "smug" out from the previous owner. It seems to get passed on to the next owner.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 12:24 a.m. DaewooOfDeath Dork

  DaveEstey wrote:

  Your definition of "real world economy" needs some perspective. Our Prius averages 48 mpg year round. During the summer, when the engine doesn't have to run to provide heat, my average is 54 mpg. With ZERO extra effort.

  If I tried some basic hyper miling I can and have broken 60 mpg over the course of several hundred miles.

  The VW products are priced similarly to the Prius, but pay an average of 40 cents more per gallon of diesel, that's spending moremoney, not less. Merc doesn't make anything close to the cost of a Prius and has the added cost of urea injection, again, more money.

  As for cheaper, easier to service. I'm well over 90k miles with simple oil changes. You can't get easier than that. Now go compare Toyota's reliability ratings to Volkswagen's. One of these things is not like the other.

  Here's where I got the idea. Well, that and the Elantra owners on this board, who are reporting between 38-47 mpg.

  Car Magazine, June 2010, page 136.

  Toyota Prius, Our Mileage: 41.6

  Directly beneath this:

  BMW X1 Diesel, Our Mileage: 42.3

  One is a small car designed for super low drag and a tiny frontal area. One weighs about 3,000 lbs. The other is seemingly designed to smash the air into oblivion and weighs on the far side of 4,000 lbs.

  Seems to me the diesel is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient if it can overcome all of the X1's designed in disadvantages.

  Look to the surrounding pages and I come across other interesting comparisons.

  Hyundai I10 Gasoline, Our Mileage: 45.7

  RangeRover TDV6 Diesel, Our Mileage 24.0

  Lexus RS450 Hybrid, Our Mileage 25.3

  Volvo C30 1.6 Diesel, Our Mileage 64.3

  Citreon C3 1.5 Gasoline, Our Mileage 34.7

  Peugeot 3008 Diesel (much bigger, more powerful than a Prius), Our Mileage 40.2

  Same magazine, August 2010

  The Prius is down to 39.9 mpg. This puts it in the same neighborhood as a 2.2 liter diesel Mazda CX-7 AWD at 32 mpg, an Audi A5 Diesel at 36.4 mpg, and the enormous BMW 530d GT at 34.2.

  It gets its but kicked by the BMW 316d at an average of 48 mpg (45 mpg after the track days, something I don't think you'd ever try in a Prius). The Peugeot 3008 is up to 40.1, the Citreon C3 Gasoline is up to 49 mpg. The previously mentioned Volvo is down to a mere 55.2.

  This leads me to conclude a Prius is the rough equivalent, efficiency wise, to a gasoline subcompact or a diesel large car/small SUV. If you compare it to an economy optimized diesel (the Volvo) it is about 50% less efficient.

  mguar Well Volkswagen has a very poor reliability rating by most of the consumer magazines.. Same with Mercedes.. (not to mention the extremely high cost of their service).. when you add fuel that may be anywhere from 40-50 cents per gallon more than gasoline the added fuel mileage is pretty well washed away..

  In Nevada it is rare to see any Prius under 10K. It is not difficult to find a 2003 TDI Jetta under 5K. And while I concede VWs are not reliable, that's not really the engine's fault.

  http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/2003/diesel%20l4

  That said, the fact the US gets some of the worst deisels in the world, when it gets them at all, certainly seems to make it a closer contest, especially if you ignore the social costs of subsidies for hybrids.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 1:06 a.m. DaewooOfDeath Dork

  This makes it sound like I'm completely anti-hybrid. I'm not. If they can make it cost effective, something like the Volt could be very interesting. Hybrids are also great for stuff like city busses, particularly when the busses are fueled on LPG.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 6:53 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

  In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

  There are still issues with diesels. Mainly in the exhaust steam. And those issues are going to hit the fan in Europe in 2014. Even with EuroVI, the EU allows diesels to emit more gaseous and PM emissions than gas engines. EPA and CARB say a car is a car- emissions are be equal.

  There's nothing really stopping BMW from importing diesels like VW and Mercedes do. If one can meet the requirements, anyone can.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 7:16 a.m. mguar Reader

  In reply to ProDarwin:

  Seriously, if you want a gen set go search out used 5KW ones from Craigslist etc.. I've seen decent ones sell for a few hundred dollars.. Perfect for emergencies.. On a job site genset's normally run 8 hours non-stop and get serviced maybe once a year..

  As they're used by neighbors they run non- stop until power is restored.. In one case almost a week. Then filled back up with gasoline with Stabil added. until the next demand..
  5KW is plenty, it will run Air con, lights, and a TV with power to run the sprinkler system pump if needed.. Even if you pay a $1000 for one it's gonna be a lot cheaper than the fiddling around to back feed into the house.

  Hybrids operate at something like 540 volts which is going to take a wierd (expensive) inverter to work not to mention some creative wiring and switching circuit..

  Even used the plug in Hybrid will be at least 10 times what you could buy a brand new 5KW genset for.. Plus the engine in a Hybrid will be massive overkill to power a house... (however with all the voltage conversion etc. I doubt anywhere near as efficent..)

  Yes you could use a Rolex to drive nails in but there are cheaper and better solutions.. New a plug in Hybrid is going to cost around $40,000

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 7:32 a.m. mguar Reader

  DaewooOfDeath wrote:

  DaveEstey wrote:

  Your definition of "real world economy" needs some perspective. Our Prius averages 48 mpg year round. During the summer, when the engine doesn't have to run to provide heat, my average is 54 mpg. With ZERO extra effort.

  If I tried some basic hyper miling I can and have broken 60 mpg over the course of several hundred miles.

  The VW products are priced similarly to the Prius, but pay an average of 40 cents more per gallon of diesel, that's spending moremoney, not less. Merc doesn't make anything close to the cost of a Prius and has the added cost of urea injection, again, more money.

  As for cheaper, easier to service. I'm well over 90k miles with simple oil changes. You can't get easier than that. Now go compare Toyota's reliability ratings to Volkswagen's. One of these things is not like the other.

  Here's where I got the idea. Well, that and the Elantra owners on this board, who are reporting between 38-47 mpg.

  Car Magazine, June 2010, page 136.

  Toyota Prius, Our Mileage: 41.6

  Directly beneath this:

  BMW X1 Diesel, Our Mileage: 42.3

  One is a small car designed for super low drag and a tiny frontal area. One weighs about 3,000 lbs. The other is seemingly designed to smash the air into oblivion and weighs on the far side of 4,000 lbs.

  Seems to me the diesel is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient if it can overcome all of the X1's designed in disadvantages.

  Look to the surrounding pages and I come across other interesting comparisons.

  Hyundai I10 Gasoline, Our Mileage: 45.7

  RangeRover TDV6 Diesel, Our Mileage 24.0

  Lexus RS450 Hybrid, Our Mileage 25.3

  Volvo C30 1.6 Diesel, Our Mileage 64.3

  Citreon C3 1.5 Gasoline, Our Mileage 34.7

  Peugeot 3008 Diesel (much bigger, more powerful than a Prius), Our Mileage 40.2

  Same magazine, August 2010

  The Prius is down to 39.9 mpg. This puts it in the same neighborhood as a 2.2 liter diesel Mazda CX-7 AWD at 32 mpg, an Audi A5 Diesel at 36.4 mpg, and the enormous BMW 530d GT at 34.2.

  It gets its but kicked by the BMW 316d at an average of 48 mpg (45 mpg after the track days, something I don't think you'd ever try in a Prius). The Peugeot 3008 is up to 40.1, the Citreon C3 Gasoline is up to 49 mpg. The previously mentioned Volvo is down to a mere 55.2.

  This leads me to conclude a Prius is the rough equivalent, efficiency wise, to a gasoline subcompact or a diesel large car/small SUV. If you compare it to an economy optimized diesel (the Volvo) it is about 50% less efficient.

  mguar Well Volkswagen has a very poor reliability rating by most of the consumer magazines.. Same with Mercedes.. (not to mention the extremely high cost of their service).. when you add fuel that may be anywhere from 40-50 cents per gallon more than gasoline the added fuel mileage is pretty well washed away..

  In Nevada it is rare to see any Prius under 10K. It is not difficult to find a 2003 TDI Jetta under 5K. And while I concede VWs are not reliable, that's not really the engine's fault.

  http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/2003/diesel%20l4

  That said, the fact the US gets some of the worst deisels in the world, when it gets them at all, certainly seems to make it a closer contest, especially if you ignore the social costs of subsidies for hybrids.

  You did read where I said there is more than one solution for the pending fuel cost explosion. (1.3 Billion Chinese, 1.1 Billion Indians not to mention the third world now in a position to dramatically increase the use of cars)
  

  Ethanol, biofuels, used cooking oil, Natural Gas, gas and diesel all have their place.. There have been some great improvements with diesels lately direct injection being one.. The ability to squirt fuel into a chamber at the correct moment so no fuel adheres to the cylinder walls.

  I understand your preference for diesels.. They are miserable here in the frozen tundra and while there are solutions to cold start and poor fuel mileage when cold They too have their social costs..

  Diesels are dirty. Dirtier than gasoline engines at this point.. Plus you haven't ever lived next door to a diesel hammering away on a cold nights so the owner could go to work in the morning..

  However fair dues, Ford has embraced that technology.. The new eccoboost engines all have direct injection..

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 7:37 a.m. mguar Reader

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  ProDarwin wrote:

  Somehow this discussion got way off track... the article was about Hybrid vs. non-hybrid used car (not plug-ins, not electrics).
  

  I think the big issue with the used ones is no one has come up with a way to get the "smug" out from the previous owner. It seems to get passed on to the next owner.

  It's not the hybrid's fault.. (about smugness) It's people who own/drive them, may have that gene in their DNA.. Of course they're the same ones who brag about their golf clubs or Children's achievements..

  That same Smugness used to come from driving a whatever or belonging to this or that group.. People who exude smugness have always been with us.. Will always be with us..

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 8:27 a.m. DaewooOfDeath Dork

  alfadriver wrote:

  In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

  There are still issues with diesels. Mainly in the exhaust steam. And those issues are going to hit the fan in Europe in 2014. Even with EuroVI, the EU allows diesels to emit more gaseous and PM emissions than gas engines. EPA and CARB say a car is a car- emissions are be equal.

  There's nothing really stopping BMW from importing diesels like VW and Mercedes do. If one can meet the requirements, anyone can.

  Interesting about EuroVI, I was under the impression that everybody in Europe was really jumping on the diesel bandwagon, making new engines right now.

  What gasses do they emit more of? I thought particulate traps had gotten pretty advanced in recent generations.

  As for why BMW/Subaru/Mazda/Ford/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Porsche/Fiat/Hyundai/Kia/Chevrolet/ LandRover/Jaguar don't import their car diesels, I think it's a combination of the US having dirt cheap gasoline (as compared to almost everywhere else) and the lingering prejudice people have as a result of the 1980 Olds 350 diesel and its ilk.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 8:44 a.m. Otto Maddox Dork

  mguar wrote:

  Datsun1500 wrote:

  ProDarwin wrote:

  Somehow this discussion got way off track... the article was about Hybrid vs. non-hybrid used car (not plug-ins, not electrics).
  

  I think the big issue with the used ones is no one has come up with a way to get the "smug" out from the previous owner. It seems to get passed on to the next owner.

  It's not the hybrid's fault.. (about smugness) It's people who own/drive them, may have that gene in their DNA.. Of course they're the same ones who brag about their golf clubs or Children's achievements..

  That same Smugness used to come from driving a whatever or belonging to this or that group.. People who exude smugness have always been with us.. Will always be with us..

  Not to offend, but diesel people seem almost cultish. I think the hybrid smugness has kind of petered away over time.

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 8:49 a.m. Otto Maddox SuperDork

  Consumer Reports says -

  Golf TDI (MT) - 38 MPG

  Prius - 44 MPG

  Insight - 38 MPG

  Fit (MT) - 33 MPG

  Elantra - 29 MPG

  Jetta Wagon TDI (MT) - 36 MPG

  BMW 335d - 28 MPG

  MB E350 Blu-Tec - 26 MPG

  MB GL350 Blu-Tec - 19 MPG

  BMW X5 35d - 22 MPG

  Lexus RX450h - 26 MPG

• 

  Jan. 26, 2012 9:33 a.m. alfadriver SuperDork

  DaewooOfDeath wrote:

  alfadriver wrote:

  In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

  There are still issues with diesels. Mainly in the exhaust steam. And those issues are going to hit the fan in Europe in 2014. Even with EuroVI, the EU allows diesels to emit more gaseous and PM emissions than gas engines. EPA and CARB say a car is a car- emissions are be equal.

  There's nothing really stopping BMW from importing diesels like VW and Mercedes do. If one can meet the requirements, anyone can.

  Interesting about EuroVI, I was under the impression that everybody in Europe was really jumping on the diesel bandwagon, making new engines right now.

  What gasses do they emit more of? I thought particulate traps had gotten pretty advanced in recent generations.

  As for why BMW/Subaru/Mazda/Ford/Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Porsche/Fiat/Hyundai/Kia/Chevrolet/ LandRover/Jaguar don't import their car diesels, I think it's a combination of the US having dirt cheap gasoline (as compared to almost everywhere else) and the lingering prejudice people have as a result of the 1980 Olds 350 diesel and its ilk.

  Europe jumped on the diesel band wagon a long time ago- they started taxing gasoline at a much higher rate than diesel back in the 90's as part of the Kyoto Treaty that they were all bound to meet.

  In addition to the tax, emissions rules for diesels have always been looser in Europe than the US (gas to diesel relative), so it was reasonably easy to make an economy car that can make Euro(whatever) and sell it cheap.

  But what has happened is that even with the tightening of gas emissions, air quality in Europe has not been getting better, and appears to have leveled off or gotten worse in some areas. And PM emissiond have gotten a lot worse. Now, I do belive that in observation visting, but that idea is very much backed up by EuroV and moreso for EuroVI- were diesel emissions are being tighted quite a bit- not as much as gas, but to the point were the solutions are going to be very tough to sell on the A, B, and C segment cars that are not luxury brands. That, and visting shows that the tax break for diesel fuel seems to be drying up all over the continent.
  

  It's very possible to be PZEV with diesels. But it costs SO much less to do that with gas, it's not even funny. Diesel emissions are always higher in NOx and still have PM problems.

  Gas is cheap here, as the taxes on fuel in general are a lot lower, and there's no fuel bias for the taxes. If diesels offered real cost benefits, more people would buy them. But spend $4000 more for it, and then pay $.30/gal more, and the fuel economy benefit out of that is virtually impossible to get.

  BTW, European buyers are just like Americans- they buy with their pocketbook. Manual cars are cheaper and get better gas mileage- that's why they sell more in Europe. Here- the benefit is much more subdued, thus manuals are more of a fringe for people who like driving.

  Things will be changing mid 2010 decade. EuroVI is 2014, LEVIII starts in 2015, and Tier3 should be starting in 2016.

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