V12 CL600 too good to be true?

i've been halfway looking for a big engine'd big bodied all out luxury car on the cheap to drive around in when i do not need the ram, because it's at 15k miles and i bought it in march. my 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty is going to be up just into year 2 at this rate, and i'll have no issues hitting the 100k powertrain warranty well before the 5 years it covers.

if i could not drive it when i'm not using it as a truck, it would be nice to keep the miles off it.

so this popped up today http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5847509465.html

2001 CL600. V12, 361hp/391lb ft, 75k miles, and condition wise it looks too good to be true for $3500 OBO.

are these things really into this range? it was 120K+ new. i'm not looking for this particular car per se, a 4 door would be nicer for kid hauling, but once abby gets big enough to turn her seat around a 2 door would be fine. it seems like a heck of a deal to me for a lot of car, that won't get a million miles put on it.

Holy crap, batman!

I can only imagine the cost of the deferred maintenance on that one.
either that, or its a scam.

The 02s and earlier are cheaper because you got the twin turbos and 493hp in 03, but more importantly you are just a tune away from 600hp and 700 ft lbs of torque with the TT v12. That being said I'd still probably scoop that NA up for 3500! For reference I picked up my clean, but salvage title s600 with the TT v12 for under 6k....they are great cars to spend time in.

Did you check KBB?

In "fair" condition that car is worth $3200-$5100. So yes, that giant steaming pile is probably priced accordingly.

So a car's fair market value is less than 5% (at best) of it's original retail value with only 75K on the clock. That's gotta say something, right?

NEALSMO wrote: Did you check KBB? In "fair" condition that car is worth $3200-$5100. So yes, that giant steaming pile is probably priced accordingly. So a car's fair market value is less than 5% (at best) of it's original retail value with only 75K on the clock. That's gotta say something, right?

They are great driving cars and very DIYable. Looking at the numbers alone is great for something like a Sentra, but I find that falls very short looking at stuff like this. Generally I find the comments about the horrid maintenance costs and other negativity comes from either non owners or people who have a hard time putting gas is their car. Yes, owning a modern v12 Benz can be very expensive if you don't do any work yourself, but it can also be very rewarding if you do.

Brake rotors and pads are sub $10 each from rock auto. Shocks, however, are $600 each and only 3 are available. Hydraulic adjustable suspension, sounds like a good reason for ebay coilivers when it barfs.

Im almost thinking to go look at this one, and see if 2500 could take it. Or offer 2k and explain the challenge and see if the seller is motivated and/or thinks the idea is cool.

I don't see anything in the pics except a steaming pile of berkeleying awesome

$2000 is the ticket... even I would pick it up for that, don't do that to me.

Ad comes up as deleted. Who bought it? Where's the build thread?

I'd do it. I have a weakness for big powerful luxury cars at the bottom of their depreciation. Especially Mercedes V12's. A S600 will probably be in my future. Mercedes V12's are generally reliable. A lot canot go wrong around it though. I heard the coil packs were expensive to replace even DIY. Good thing about cars built like this is, things like that don't have to be replaced too often.

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5847875331.html

deleted and reposted. wonder if they're trying to keep it at the top or what

yupididit wrote: I'd do it. I have a weakness for big powerful luxury cars at the bottom of their depreciation. Especially Mercedes V12's. A S600 will probably be in my future. Mercedes V12's are generally reliable. A lot canot go wrong around it though. I heard the coil packs were expensive to replace even DIY. Good thing about cars built like this is, things like that don't have to be replaced too often.

Coil packs are $700 per bank rebuilt or 1300 per bank new, so yeah not cheap. I was getting an occasional cylinder 12 misfire on mine. I could have pulled the coil pack on that bank and replaced just the cylinder 12 coils for around $200, but I decided to be proactive and do both banks(rebuilt by v12icpack.com), the plugs (24), and valve cover gaskets. Not a hard job at all, but a little time consuming....think a weekend job or less if you're fast and have done it before. I'm sure some guys can do all that in a day, but I generally take my time. The valve covers added some time...if it weren't for those I could have done the plugs and coils in a day. All of that cost me around $1700 in parts, but like I said most of it wasn't a 'must do' at the time. The decision maker for me was the fact there are 24 coils, 2 per cylinder, and I absolutely did not want to do that job every time another coil started acting up.

In reply to patgizz:

I had commented on the same car last week.

Not something I "need" for myself but very interesting.

I have been looking at these locally, just because V12 sound, price seems reasonably accurate in the ball park.

10 year old german luxury car with lots of cylinders.

People are scared of them hence the price.

Cotton wrote: Coil packs are $700 per bank rebuilt or 1300 per bank new, so yeah not cheap. I was getting an occasional cylinder 12 misfire on mine. I could have pulled the coil pack on that bank and replaced just the cylinder 12 coils for around $200, but I decided to be proactive and do both banks(rebuilt by v12icpack.com), the plugs (24), and valve cover gaskets. Not a hard job at all, but a little time consuming....think a weekend job or less if you're fast and have done it before. I'm sure some guys can do all that in a day, but I generally take my time. The valve covers added some time...if it weren't for those I could have done the plugs and coils in a day. All of that cost me around $1700 in parts, but like I said most of it wasn't a 'must do' at the time. The decision maker for me was the fact there are 24 coils, 2 per cylinder, and I absolutely did not want to do that job every time another coil started acting up.

I don't want to sound argumentative but waving off people who cite horrid maintenance costs, then describing a weekend's worth of work, $1700 in parts, and down time while you sent the coils out, does not really support your argument, even if you call it extra preventative maintenance.

When this car came up before, user Mike pointed out: "The oil cooler sits on top of the engine, in the V. It develops leaks and requires replacement. IIRC, it's a $450 part, but requires pulling both heads, and everything else around it, making it a $4000 dealer job."

Cars like this one require a risk/reward evaluation. For me, the nice V12 does not out weigh the potential for aggravation. For the record, my current 1/2 daily (split with an e-golf) is a V70R w/142k miles on it. Before that was an '00 XJR w/150k miles. The XJR still tops my list as attractive-interesting-car-that's-cheap-and-pretty-solid. The Volvo is a much better fit for me though.

""

Before that was an '00 XJR w/150k miles. The XJR still tops my list as attractive-interesting-car-that's-cheap-and-pretty-solid.

And to go along with your dig on the Merc, i recently replaced the infamous failed timing chain tensioners on an XJR and it's definitely not DIY friendly. At least a $1700 coil pack doesn't bend valves on the way out.

Not that i don't like all of these cars. It was an extreme act of will for me to avoid looking at a ~4300obo TTv12 s600 a few months ago since i knew i would have stupidly bought it (right after buying a 911 with an original IMS bearing..). But i AM the kind of person that will do XJR chain tensioners or an IMS bearing in my garage, so i have to be really careful how far i indulge myself into these cheap cars with risky pitfalls.

mfennell wrote:

Cotton wrote: Coil packs are $700 per bank rebuilt or 1300 per bank new, so yeah not cheap. I was getting an occasional cylinder 12 misfire on mine. I could have pulled the coil pack on that bank and replaced just the cylinder 12 coils for around $200, but I decided to be proactive and do both banks(rebuilt by v12icpack.com), the plugs (24), and valve cover gaskets. Not a hard job at all, but a little time consuming....think a weekend job or less if you're fast and have done it before. I'm sure some guys can do all that in a day, but I generally take my time. The valve covers added some time...if it weren't for those I could have done the plugs and coils in a day. All of that cost me around $1700 in parts, but like I said most of it wasn't a 'must do' at the time. The decision maker for me was the fact there are 24 coils, 2 per cylinder, and I absolutely did not want to do that job every time another coil started acting up.

I don't want to sound argumentative but waving off people who cite "horrid maintenance costs", then describing a weekend's worth of work, $1700 in parts, and down time while you sent the coils out, does not really support your argument, even if you call it extra preventative maintenance. When this car came up before, user Mike pointed out: "The oil cooler sits on top of the engine, in the V. It develops leaks and requires replacement. IIRC, it's a $450 part, but requires pulling both heads, and everything else around it, making it a $4000 dealer job." Cars like this one require a risk/reward evaluation. For me, the nice V12 does not out weigh the potential for aggravation. For the record, my current 1/2 daily (split with an e-golf) is a V70R w/142k miles on it. Before that was an '00 XJR w/150k miles. The XJR still tops my list as attractive-interesting-car-that's-cheap-and-pretty-solid. The Volvo is a much better fit for me though.

The oil cooler on the v12tt isn't in the same location, it is in front of the engine and easy enough to get to, so not a concern on mine.

On the coils, everyone has a threshold of what they are willing to deal with in regards to repair time, cost, etc, so I think outlining what I went through is beneficial to others looking at these cars. I'm not "waving anyone off" that is siting personal experience, or I hope I haven't. A lot of people think these cars should be trashed and are impossible puzzles to solve and all I'm doing is outlining my personal experience, so others can draw their own conclusions as opposed to just saying something unproductive like "avoid that steaming pile of garbage". I guess it's all relative to your expectations. I, like you, also have a 360 and the care and feeding on those are also costly, but people don't bitch about them near as much....I guess because the buy in is higher or they see the prancing horse and just expect it.

The s600 is now my DD split with my k1300s bike and my old 300sd with 300k miles. Even with 300k miles the SD is more reliable than the s600, but the experience sure isn't the same.

Vigo wrote: And to go along with your dig on the Merc, i recently replaced the infamous failed timing chain tensioners on an XJR and it's definitely not DIY friendly. At least a $1700 coil pack doesn't bend valves on the way out.

I amend it to attractive-interesting-car-that's-cheap-and-pretty-solid-as-long-as-tensioners-have-been-done. :) The local dealer had done the tensioners in my car.

""

Cotton wrote: On the coils, everyone has a threshold of what they are willing to deal with in regards to repair time, cost, etc, so I think outlining what I went through is beneficial to others looking at these cars. I'm not "waving anyone off" that is siting personal experience, or I hope I haven't. A lot of people think these cars should be trashed and are impossible puzzles to solve and all I'm doing is outlining my personal experience, so others can draw their own conclusions as opposed to just saying something unproductive like "avoid that steaming pile of garbage". I guess it's all relative to your expectations. I, like you, also have a 360 and the care and feeding on those are also costly, but people don't bitch about them near as much....I guess because the buy in is higher or they see the prancing horse and just expect it.

I'm glad you put that info out there and it's great to see people keep the cars going. I came off more strongly than I meant to.

As for the 360, it's the expectations as you say plus the risk/reward thing. It can be a money pit but I love it. I'm not willing to put up with as much potential pain for the car I commute in but YMMV. You have to admit the gated trans 360s are pretty solid once the exhaust and variators are updated though.

It's all relative. My neighbor flies an Extra 300L for fun. The cost of aircraft ownership is just insane.

Cotton wrote: personal experience, so others can draw their own conclusions as opposed to just saying something unproductive like "avoid that steaming pile of garbage". I guess it's all relative to your expectations.

The point of using quotation marks is too actually quote something verbatim.

I never said "avoid that" steaming pile. I merely pointed out that it has depreciated at an insane rate for a reason.

If you aren't depending on it to get to work, are willing to spend an entire weekend replacing a couple of gaskets, or can just walk away from it when it gets stupid expensive, go for it. I'm sure it's a blast to drive up until the repair bill the overshadows the buy-in price. Just don't ask "is this too good to be true?", especially when KBB confirms it. No it's not. It's priced accordingly to what it's value is.

I spend stupid money on a 28 year old Nissan that only gets driven once a month, so I can't judge you for shelling out cash on silly things.

mfennell wrote:

Cotton wrote: On the coils, everyone has a threshold of what they are willing to deal with in regards to repair time, cost, etc, so I think outlining what I went through is beneficial to others looking at these cars. I'm not "waving anyone off" that is siting personal experience, or I hope I haven't. A lot of people think these cars should be trashed and are impossible puzzles to solve and all I'm doing is outlining my personal experience, so others can draw their own conclusions as opposed to just saying something unproductive like "avoid that steaming pile of garbage". I guess it's all relative to your expectations. I, like you, also have a 360 and the care and feeding on those are also costly, but people don't bitch about them near as much....I guess because the buy in is higher or they see the prancing horse and just expect it.

I'm glad you put that info out there and it's great to see people keep the cars going. I came off more strongly than I meant to. As for the 360, it's the expectations as you say plus the risk/reward thing. It can be a money pit but I love it. I'm not willing to put up with as much potential pain for the car I commute in but YMMV. You have to admit the gated trans 360s are pretty solid once the exhaust and variators are updated though. It's all relative. My neighbor flies an Extra 300L for fun. The cost of aircraft ownership is just insane.

Yes, so far the gated 360 had been incredible and very reliable (by Ferrari standards) under my ownership and the POs. I drove it last Friday and it's just an experience. Mine has had all the updates done, but I do have some dash shrinkage near the windshield, so eventually I'll need to address that. Currently my options seem to be pull the dash myself and have Braden fix it for 1500 or take the entire car somewhere and pay 5k. I'm not sure when I'm going to tackle this since the pull is currently very minor, but I will at least pull the dash myself when the time comes. Once it's out, if I don't see an easy DIY option or a local option, I will probably just bite the bullet and get it redone for the $1500 at Braden.

On commuting.... I was actually content in commuting on the bike and with the 300sd when my commute was ~70 miles round trip, but earlier this year it went to ~105 miles round trip. At that point I just wanted something really nice and comfortable to spend the time in, so in comes the s600. We'll see how it progresses. If I have a spectacular failure I'll be on the lookout for something else, or maybe a v12 with a warranty , but so far the plan is to keep it on the road, and let it eat up the miles on that long commute, as long as it doesn't become too much of an aggravation.

I've seen some of the numbers for the guys that fly for fun. They make a Ferrari look incredibly cheap...pretty crazy.

NEALSMO wrote:

Cotton wrote: personal experience, so others can draw their own conclusions as opposed to just saying something unproductive like "avoid that steaming pile of garbage". I guess it's all relative to your expectations.

The point of using quotation marks is too actually quote something verbatim. I never said "avoid that" steaming pile. I merely pointed out that it has depreciated at an insane rate for a reason. If you aren't depending on it to get to work, are willing to spend an entire weekend replacing a couple of gaskets, or can just walk away from it when it gets stupid expensive, go for it. I'm sure it's a blast to drive up until the repair bill the overshadows the buy-in price. Just don't ask "is this too good to be true?", especially when KBB confirms it. No it's not. It's priced accordingly to what it's value is. I spend stupid money on a 28 year old Nissan that only gets driven once a month, so I can't judge you for shelling out cash on silly things.

man, I can't believe you got me to scroll up for something, so minor. "Avoid that steaming pile" vs " that giant steaming pile is probably priced accordingly". You're right though, I did misquote you, so I will be more diligent next time.

I did much more than replace a couple of gaskets while I was in there, but please continue to be overly dramatic with your generalizations. Now to your other point, I am willing to walk away from it if it gets too expensive or unreliable, so I agree with you. If/when I do get to that point I'll more than likely keep it as a parts car for my next one or part it out and get some money back.

KBB is not my bible for values, but I do think it's a good resource, you just have to realize it is not always accurate. It can be good for some cars and vastly off for others. A 92 Porsche 911 turbo with 59k miles is valued at 20k through kbb, which is laughable considering that is over a 100k car. Now, that being said, I decided to actually look up kbb for this 2002 CL600 in question. You said "In "fair" condition that car is worth $3200-$5100", but when I type in 2002 cl600 with 75k miles and take the default options for private party value it gives me:

Fair: 6,573

Good: $7,194

Very good: $7,625

Those are a good bit higher than what you quoted even for fair condition, so according to kbb the $3400 asking price is a good value.

Well.

In reply to yupididit:

Looks like the ad is gone again. If it pops up again, and the OP is out, I will probably call on it. It's about 8 hours away, so would make a relatively quick and interesting fly and drive for me.

Cotton wrote: In reply to yupididit: Looks like the ad is gone again. If it pops up again, and the OP is out, I will probably call on it. It's about 8 hours away, so would make a relatively quick and interesting fly and drive for me.

i'll let you know if it pops up again.