Jaret
Jaret
7/17/09 8:29 p.m.

I want to modify my old car so I'm planning the changes ahead, and two of them are most radical and I need advice.

The car being modified is this VAG based Seat Cordoba SX. Technically it's a Golf3 or more of a Polo Classic.

I want to do an engine swap, but I want to mount the new engine longitudinally.

Is it possible to mount the engine longitudinally on a VAG car that has it's engine originally transversely mounted???

The reason I want to do it is because I want to also integrate a Full-time all wheel drive from an old Audi 80. There is a picture here.

Engine swap, mount it longitudinally, install 4x4, re-paint. These are the modifications I am up to, but I need to do more research if it's possible and I'm running out of sources, so I need some experts' help :)

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
7/17/09 9:08 p.m.

Well, that depends on whether you have room between the center line of the front wheels and the radiator for the engine and bellhousing.

Personally, I would mount the engine and a 2WD Audi 5-speed in the back driving the rear wheels. RWD for the Win!

The issue with mounting the engine so far ahead of the front wheels is that it makes the car nose heavy. Audi spent quite a bit of time re-engineering their cars to keep the weight off the nose. You could replicate a lot of this effort, but you'd be better off just selling the Seat and buying a Passat with 4-motion (cheaper than the Audi, but essentially the same)

Jaret
Jaret New Reader
7/18/09 3:45 a.m.

I do have room, but would the engine mounts fit? Is there a way to see engine mount maps (of cars or engines) anywhere.

I am sorry but I don't like RWD. I think it's the hardest to drive and the least fast and stable in corners.

To avoid making the nose heavy, I plan to move the radiator and alternator to the back of the car as in the old Audi WRC for better weight distribution.

The Passat 4-motion is not a full-time all wheel drive. And I will take the 4x4 from a damaged Audi 80 for some $300.

Also the idea isn't just to sell the old car and purchase a new one, but toil on my old car as a hobby. Since it was the car of my youth I have fell in love with it's design :) Putting a turbocharged engine and full-time 4WD will make it competitive despite it's old age. Hope to give it to my son when I have one.

So I still wonder if I can fit the engine longitudinally when my body has a transversely mounted engine. Like this VW Corrado for example:http://www.dubsinthebuff.com/forum/volkswagen-related/13717-rwd-corrado.html

fifty
fifty New Reader
7/18/09 7:03 a.m.

VW Fox, numerous Audis have a longitudinally mounted engine - should be just a matter of repositioning the motor mounts, looking at what transmission they used etc.

ditchdigger
ditchdigger Reader
7/18/09 10:47 a.m.

Trans

fifty wrote:

VW Fox, numerous Audis have a longitudinally mounted engine - should be just a matter of repositioning the motor mounts, looking at what transmission they used etc.

The longitudinally mounted VW/Audi cars have alot more front overhang than the transverse cars. 4-6 inches or so.

Longitudinally

Transverse

It is why the Fox/dasher/passats feel so nose heavy and the golf/jetta's are more tossable.

I would think you would have to move the firewall back to do the swap.

Rufledt
Rufledt New Reader
7/18/09 10:57 a.m.

sounds like one heck of a project. should be awesome if it works!

Schmidlap
Schmidlap Reader
7/18/09 12:55 p.m.
Jaret wrote: To avoid making the nose heavy, I plan to move the radiator and alternator to the back of the car

So the engine will be in the front, but the alternator will be in the back of the car? Is it driven from the driveshaft or something?

Bob

Travis_K
Travis_K HalfDork
7/18/09 1:23 p.m.

Why not use a golf syncro transmission and rear differential and keep the engine transverse mounted? I think your idea might be possible, but it would be a step backwards as far as handling goes.

z31maniac
z31maniac Dork
7/18/09 4:56 p.m.

I'll go ahead and be the joykill, if you had the fab skills to make this happen you wouldn't be on here asking if it is possible.

Sorry.

Jaret
Jaret New Reader
7/18/09 5:20 p.m.
Schmidlap wrote: So the engine will be in the front, but the alternator will be in the back of the car? Is it driven from the driveshaft or something?

Yes, the original Audi Quattro S1 was modified this way for better weight distribution. Also I hope this way I can fit the engine easier.

Travis_K wrote: Why not use a golf syncro transmission and rear differential and keep the engine transverse mounted? I think your idea might be possible, but it would be a step backwards as far as handling goes.

"Not all cars advertised as 4 wheel drive are really 4WD. Volkswagen and Audi sell cars advertised as 4WD which, in fact, are not full time 4WD. Cars such as the VW Golf Synchro, 4Motion and Audi A3, S3, TT as well as the Seat Leon (all of which share the same platform and engines) have engine torque sent to the rear wheels only in case front wheel spin is detected. The above mentioned cars use a Haldex type clutch center differential which is only activated when the front wheels spin and always deactivated when braking."

I can fit a Haldex 4WD much easier, but I am after a more sporty performance so I want to do it a full-time all wheel drive, using TorSen all mechanical differentials instead of the Haldex electronically operated one.

Jaret
Jaret New Reader
7/18/09 6:00 p.m.
z31maniac wrote: I'll go ahead and be the joykill, if you had the fab skills to make this happen you wouldn't be on here asking if it is possible. Sorry.

Actually I was looking for the easiest way to do it. I am not an experienced mechanic I admit it. I am a civil engineer and I own a small business which has nothing to do with motoring, but will fund my initiative. I am starting a family and I can finally give in to the hobby I always wanted - build a race car. Also I have my little amateur team that will work with me. Having the most fun at our free time is the main goal, fabricating a good car is the second, but we tend to finish what we start. Sorry for the long boring story - blame z31maniac for it :)

So yes I don't know how to do the modifications yet, but I found out they are possible. All the VAG components I need are easy to find and very cheap at my location. I already have a VAG platform and I have startrd tooling the garage.

First thing to do is of cause research and planning and this is why I wrote here. 2nd. Strip down the body and strengthen it with welding. 3. Anti-roll bar or maybe a cage too. 4. Install the 4WD from an Audi 80 Quattro (full-time 4WD). 5. Put a turbocharged VAG engine about 200hp. With as much components at the back(alternator, battery, radiators) 6. Some visual body tuning, wings will be modified to send air to the radiators at the back and to the brakes.

But before I start the actual mechanical work I am making plans, lists and collecting data.

iceracer
iceracer HalfDork
7/18/09 6:11 p.m.

First thing to do is get a tape measure. How do you intend to run the alternator ? Anything can be done with time and money. Hey they put a 351 in a ZX2 and made it rwd.

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
7/18/09 7:22 p.m.

RWD has nothing to do with stability in a corner. You shouldn't be exceeding the available friction from the tires in a corner. If you do exceed the traction available from the tires, whether, FWD, RWD, AWD or 4WD you will slide, period.

The issue is that on the Audi IMSA AWD race cars, they had a one-way clutch setup to allow the front wheels to freewheel while they weren't accelerating to improve handling as the cars would still understeer badly otherwise. I believe some of the Rally cars could do the same.

Personally, while I respect the Audi's and the work they've done I think using a north/south, AWD/4WD solution in your car is a step in the wrong direction as far as handling goes. Even with the weight relocation, I don't think you'll enjoy it very much and the car will be more of a point/shoot style car, like the old Audi Rally cars were and the Subaru rally cars tend to be as well.

If it were me, I would suck it up and buy a Quaiffe AWD transaxle and bolt in a bigger VW engine and be done with it.

Heck you could put two motors and FWD transaxles in it and get a AWD/4WD solution with smaller, less stressed motors and plenty of speed. With cable shifted transaxles and hydraulic clutches, isn't won't be to deal with. Look up Durrocco and the dual-engined Audi TT for ideas (Top Gear did a test of the TT in one of their earlier shows)

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/18/09 9:32 p.m.

So why not put a Torsen diff in the Haldex case? Problem solved. Was it me, I'd go clutch type diff, they are much more shock resistant than the Torsen.

FWIW, over here (I assume you are in Europe) the Chrysler Pacifica and Town & Country van are both available with AWD. This is done with a 'transfer case' which contains a clutch type limited slip and bolts to the side of the original FWD transmission. This sends power to the rear wheels. These are fully mechanical full time transfer cases. Might be worth a look, and I think the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute uses a very similar setup.

I will not comment on your dissing of RWD.

z31maniac
z31maniac Dork
7/19/09 10:59 a.m.

Anything is possible with enough time/money/skills.

There is going to be nothing easy about what you are wanting to accomplish.

If you are just wanting to have something fun to take to the track, I'd personally go with something that isn't going to be full of one-off custom work/parts. I'd get something that would be easy to get parts for etc.

LopRacer
LopRacer New Reader
5/4/11 6:00 a.m.

Canoe for Handbags.....

ansonivan
ansonivan Dork
5/4/11 8:39 a.m.

Blast, when I saw the thread revived I was hoping Jaret was returning with pictures of his creation for a gloat-fest.

9AC5b2AYXLyjaCQWL403dxifEwa1xx9i