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P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 12:40 p.m.

Come on guys, that felt cold.

All this talk of a Challenge out west and it's just going to be in G-Ville again? Oh but you say we get a $1000 car series in San Diego! Sorry, but dragging a $1000 car 1000+ miles to San Diego multiple times in a year for a "free" entry into the Challenge some 3500+ miles away where my used up half price car won't be competitive sounds like great fun.

Sorry about the venom but dammit we are feeling a little cold and left out right now. John and I had two cars planned with parts buying and budgeting already happening and I know a bunch of others were talking about it too (Nascho, etc). I guess we'll just have to watch the same cars that show up every year dominate again while we get left out.

Man I just feel crappy about this.

/rant

Dan G
Dan G Dork
10/6/08 12:56 p.m.

Agreed. The challenge shark was swimming in my head recently but the multi-event $1k series doesn't sound nearly as fun as a real challenge weekend.

Lemons racing has been great for filling this lo-buck racing itch, but I still like the challenge for the "builder" part of the equation. I was looking forward to scamming some coworkers into helping me build something.

jmthunderbirdturbo
jmthunderbirdturbo New Reader
10/6/08 1:02 p.m.

im with ya...im in AZ, and while flying to G-ville to watch aint bad, bringing a car at $4 gal gas is going to suck...

-J0N

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
10/6/08 1:06 p.m.

With all due respect, they never committed to the details.

I think this offers them a bit of a transition.

Besides, LOTS of Challenge cars have been built for under $1000 (including one of mine)

Osterkraut
Osterkraut Reader
10/6/08 1:09 p.m.

The multi-event side of the Challenge makes the whole thing seem very California-targeted. I understand it's probably very efficient for GRM to pick up a pre-established series, and looking at the sdrev forums they seem to have quite the following, but man is it a regional event.

Well, variety is the spice of life. I'm also tickled pink the Challenge will be back in Gainesville next year. For purely selfish reasons, of course!

As for the $1000 vs $2009 thing, the 3 top SDGC winners will, of course, get that extra $1009 to play with.

P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 1:13 p.m.

Never committed to details, but they did say "out West, maybe SW" which a billion times better then G-Ville.

Sorry but taking a week plus off of work, towing a car 3500+ miles each way, and the actual expenses of building it do not sound like a fun way to enjoy a few autocross runs and a day at the strip. It'd be a $5000+ journey between food, gas, hotels, the car, entry fees, etc.

I could do Hot Rod's Drag Week for that, or two HPDE's a month for an entire year, or build both of my cars again.

The San Diego Series doesn't sound any cheaper, even if I only went once, and the different rules don't sound fun.

Sorry but if this what's happening I'm out. Guess I won't be in any GRM events until at least 2010, if that. Back to being just a reader.

On the bright side now I'm going to actually rebuild/upgrade my 302 since I don't have a budget to deal with.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
10/6/08 1:22 p.m.

Then do like me, I had more fun with no car this year than previous years with one.

If it had been only on the West Coast, I'd have been there. I might have flown, but I'd have been there.

P71 wrote: Never committed to details, but they did say "out West, maybe SW" which a billion times better then G-Ville.
P71 wrote: The San Diego Series doesn't sound any cheaper, even if I only went once, and the different rules don't sound fun.

So maybe not a billion times better...

P71 wrote: I could do Hot Rod's Drag Week for that...

Maybe get beat by Mr. Nelson there, too.

Sorry you are unhappy.

jmthunderbirdturbo
jmthunderbirdturbo New Reader
10/6/08 1:29 p.m.

where do you get 3500 miles from? are you sidetracking to New Mexico on the way to SoCal? your in Washington still, right? not western Canada? its all of 1300 miles from Johns place to San-D...

and if your referring to G-ville, its only 3100 and change...

(btw-your complaining again)

P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 2:14 p.m.

Well of course we'd have to drive through AZ to pick you up!

I think I have the right to complain on this one. They dangled the "West Coast" carrot in front of our noses for a year and then responded with this. Not cool.

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
10/6/08 2:18 p.m.

I'm pretty disappointed as well. I had already purchased and started work on my $2009 car, but as mentioned the Grand Challenge and the Gainesville Challenge just don't make any sense for a guy in my neck of the woods. Actually, Gainesville would cost me LESS than the San Diego version because I'd only have to pay to transport/tow the vehicle down and back once and would burn through less vacation time. Plus, the Grand Challenge format is interesting for a local, but definitely not as attractive to people outside of the SoCal region and with a lower budget allowed my build isn't feasible. I brought up the Grand Challenge a while back...they've been tweaking the format since GRM got on board, although they're still not really aligned, GRM at least made them change a few things before slapping a GRM sticker on the event.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/has-this-come-up-here-yet/2708/page1/

I think I'll just toss the hard budget requirement out the window and build up for the UTCC. My $2009 car will probably be sold shortly; I've got another car I already owned before $200X came along that I'd rather build if an extra grand or two won't break any rules. It will still be a low budget build, but now I can do things like buy cheap off the shelf parts instead of building them myself (for near-free) that will significantly speed up the build process. I might still fly out for the $2009 just to check it off my list of events to do before I die, but I'll be doing it from the stands if I do.

Bryce

P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 2:25 p.m.

I'm with you Bryce. Looks like we're spectators at everything except the UTCC if it stays West Coast, and that's the least "grassroots" of all the events (not to mention you have to be invited).

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
10/6/08 2:26 p.m.

I think the point for many of us is that while the Grand-Challenge sounds interesting, it isn't the GRM challenge West that the people at GRM hinted at. Sure, if it was more centrally located along the West Coast then maybe some of us would attend. They really should have called it the San Diego Grand-Challenge since that is what it is.

I was hoping the GRM Challenge would have been a little more centrally located so that East and West would have a similar distance to travel.

I guess making those of us willing to travel from the West drive to freakin Florida shows how hardcore we are? Nevermind that we've built a car for $200x.00, now we have to drive or trailer it across North America at $4 + per gallon of fuel?

Or is it really that you folks just think that the East coast is where all the "good stuff" happens and that anything west of Mississippi is just tractors, corn, Vegas, LA and Hollywood?

Honestly, I feel like Charlie Brown after Lucy took the football away. Unlike Charlie Brown, I know better than to fall for it again. I'm sure the East-Coast folks are wondering why we're so bent on this. To them, I say flip things around and see how you'd feel.

Unfortunately for all of our bitching and complaining, in the end it is GRM's event and they can do what they want. If all they want is East-Coast folks, then that is obviously what they are going to get. The underlying statement has been made, West-Coast isn't big enough to get their attention, monetarily-speaking. They can sit-back and point to folks from past Challenges who made long treks and state that they didn't complain, or they're not East-coast, etc. To that I say, whatever makes you feel better.

Tim Baxter
Tim Baxter Online Editor
10/6/08 2:41 p.m.

Glass half-full:

You get multiple events. They're not in your back yard, but they're at least on the right coast. Florida ain't exactly close to New England, either, but they're both on the East Coast.

You get multiple chances to test, tune, and improve your car. More development time is good.

If, after all that development, you climb to the top 3, you get can then spend an extra 1009 on your already-well-sorted car AND you get a trip to Gainesville paid for.

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
10/6/08 2:50 p.m.
Tim Baxter wrote: Glass half-full: You get multiple events. They're not in your back yard, but they're at least on the right coast. Florida ain't exactly close to New England, either, but they're both on the East Coast. You get multiple chances to test, tune, and improve your car. More development time is good. If, after all that development, you climb to the top 3, you get can then spend an extra 1009 on your already-well-sorted car AND you get a trip to Gainesville paid for.

I want some of what Tim's smokin'! After all that development, you get ADMISSION to the Gainesville Challenge paid for. The trip is still going to cost you. If the trip was paid for, I'd have a lot more motivation to do well in the Grand Challenge.

Bryce

carguy123
carguy123 HalfDork
10/6/08 3:27 p.m.

I vote all events be held right smack dab in the middle in the Fort Worth area.

The fact that I am located in FW has nothing to do with my thoughts, it is just logical.

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
10/6/08 3:38 p.m.

Sooooo what you're saying is that you want us to spend $10K developing and transporting a car valued at $1000.00 for seven events, all in SoCal, then spend another $1K improving the car with another $5K to transport it to/from the "big event" in Florida? In return, if we do well enough, you're going to drop $150.00 off the registration and put a picture and short description in the magazine?

This is your idea of fun?

Tim, you probably would have been better off to have ignored us like the rest of the staff have. I appreciate your attempt to make us "feel better" about the situation.

mtn
mtn Dork
10/6/08 3:40 p.m.

Just because everybody else is giving their two cents, I'll give mine. Because MY opinion is a lot better than everybody else's, seeing as it is coming from the brilliant person who is Mike.

CHICAGO--third largest city in the nation, in the middle of the nation, Joliet has everything that would be needed....

Sorry, just jumping on the bandwagon of giving out better ideas than the magazine could have.

fiat22turbo
fiat22turbo SuperDork
10/6/08 3:46 p.m.
carguy123 wrote: I vote all events be held right smack dab in the middle in the Fort Worth area. The fact that I am located in FW has nothing to do with my thoughts, it is just logical.

Actually, that wouldn't be that bad, provided it was a "real" GRM Challenge.

I'm not advocating that it be run in my back yard (Pac-West), that is as far away from Florida you can get in the Continental US.

Chicago would be another good solution as well.

Like I said, anything that can set the drive time for both east/west to be similar is a good thing and ultimately what I expected to have happen as a happy-medium.

P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 3:56 p.m.

I would have been up for anything west of the Mississippi. Chicago, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Kansas, Cali, whatever. Any of them would have been better then G-Ville again. The lack of new entries should show GRM that the Challenge is stagnating and that fresh blood/sweat/tears are needed...

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/6/08 4:05 p.m.
fiat22turbo wrote: Sooooo what you're saying is that you want us to spend $10K developing and transporting a car valued at $1000.00 for seven events, all in SoCal, then spend another $1K improving the car with another $5K to transport it to/from the "big event" in Florida? In return, if we do well enough, you're going to drop $150.00 off the registration and put a picture and short description in the magazine? This is your idea of fun? Tim, you probably would have been better off to have ignored us like the rest of the staff have. I appreciate your attempt to make us "feel better" about the situation.

No, not ignoring you, I've been busy making magazines today, others are traveling. Some things that influenced our decision:

  • The UTCC turnout wasn't great. We held a big event out west and didn't get a huge turnout. Where was everyone? Any car could have entered, yet the field was smaller than expected.

  • The Florida Challenges seem to work so well because we have the whole staff there. No way we could do that out west. It's really as much of a social event as a motorsports one.

  • We'd lose the momentum we have here in Florida if we went to an alternating schedule. This weekend's event was awesome--awesome cars, awesome people.

  • This opportunity came our way. Either we could have had competing events or joined forces. We decided to join forces.

  • I know, it's a big country. I think that no matter what we do, people will complain. It's human nature. I'm sorry we can't hold a Challenge event in Oregon, Chicago and every other city. On the other hand, so far we had a team drive in from Idaho twice--Portand is only 400 more miles away, and in the past we have paid appearance money for those driving in from states that touch the Pacific.

This doesn't mean we're not ever going to do a "real" West Coast Challenge. Just answering some questions.

bluej
bluej HalfDork
10/6/08 4:25 p.m.
P71 wrote: The lack of new entries should show GRM that the Challenge is stagnating and that fresh blood/sweat/tears are needed...

now you're just flat out wrong there. There was plenty of all of that, trust me.

P71
P71 Reader
10/6/08 4:30 p.m.

And I shall counter.

  • Correct me if I'm wrong David, but didn't you have to be "invited" to the UTCC via CarDomain? Also you do have to admit that building an all-conquering uber-trackday car is a tad bit more expensive then building a $2000 autocross car to go socializing with. Believe me, I'd love to go to the UTCC, but a track car is beyond my means right now. A cheap autocross/drag car is not.

  • Plane tickets are cheap. Also you could call for volunteers to make it work. I'd help out eve if it relegated me to a "show only" class, just to be a part of one.

  • I'm not doubting that it was an amazing event (that's why we all want to go), but holding it in one place because you like the local/regular crowd is not only introverted, it hurts the rest of us. That statement makes it sound like we are outsiders and you'd rather not let us in.

  • I fail to see how a Regional $1000 series that barely resembles the Challenge rules conflicts with the Challenge or makes up for the lack of a West Coast one.

  • We know it's a big country. A lot of us travel all over the place to go to stuff (LeMons, Seven Stock, etc, etc). At $4+/gallon plus a lousy economy dragging a $2000 car cross-country just isn't feasible.

None of these points address why you would tease us with hints about a West Coast Challenge all year only to substitute a completely different event that Regional at best. Again, you are making sound like all of us are outsiders and you'd rather stick to the "local" crew (apologies to the local crew, I rather enjoy reading about your cars). Fresh faces/cars could do wonders for the Challenge.

kreb
kreb Dork
10/6/08 4:32 p.m.

urgggh, I don't want to be a negative, but the numbers don't work for me either. I'm willing to drive 8 hours for a traditional challenge weekend, but several times just don't do it. It's too bad the UTCC West wasn't better attended. There just wasn't the buzz, although the Mustang guys were well represented.

bear with us guys!

Dan G
Dan G Dork
10/6/08 4:38 p.m.

David, I was planning to attend the UTCC as a spectator considering future entry, but decided not to as it was squeezed into a regular NASA weekend and didn't feel as "special" as a standalone event. It seemed like I'd be driving up to watch a bunch of (admittedly awesome) cars go through a regular old HPDE4/TT weekend. Not the kind of craziness and extracurricular activities that we have at the challenge. As a future entrant, I was initially thinking my 2.7L 944 turbo project would be a pretty competitive entry, but I realize now that at best it would just be an also-ran in comparison to the kind of hardware showing up. The reason the challenge is so much fun is that success SEEMS to be much easier to achieve.

I'm still intrigued by the SGC, but I'm likely going to pass as even with SandyEggo only 2 hours away, thats a lot of towing for a junker to go to a drag race here and an autox there. A lot of beg/borrow/rent towing. Some of the fun of the Challenge is cramming it all into 2 days.

Also, the SGC site is blocked by my work's webfilter for "gambling", can anyone cut/paste the rules into this thread?

Nashco
Nashco SuperDork
10/6/08 5:05 p.m.
David S. Wallens wrote: No, not ignoring you, I've been busy making magazines today, others are traveling. Some things that influenced our decision: - The UTCC turnout wasn't great. We held a big event out west and didn't get a huge turnout. Where was everyone? Any car could have entered, yet the field was smaller than expected.

Like I said, I plan on entering the next one. Although, I haven't seen any announcement on next year's event, when/where/if it will have the green class again. I like the GRM events, I just can't justify the value with the Gainesville challenge. I thought this year was going to be different, so I'd been putting my efforts towards a $2009 car. Now, I'm changing course because GRM is changing course (changing course...by staying the course, that is!).

- The Florida Challenges seem to work so well because we have the whole staff there. No way we could do that out west. It's really as much of a social event as a motorsports one.

Was there a $200X that wasn't at Gainesville? I'm confused. Are you comparing the UTCC success to $200X success based on location?

- We'd lose the momentum we have here in Florida if we went to an alternating schedule. This weekend's event was awesome--awesome cars, awesome people.

Sure, I could see that. Maybe next year the Hongs can take the whole podium, they definitely have the momentum. Really, I understand that you guys are afraid of wrecking your obviously successful model. I'm still disappointed...had you never said anything about coming out west it would have been far easier on me.

- This opportunity came our way. Either we could have had competing events or joined forces. We decided to join forces.

Competing events? Who the hell was going to do $200X and changed their mind so they could do the Grand Challenge? The only people interested in the Grand Challenge are locals. So far, I haven't seen a single forum person say they're doing it, west coasters or not. I even brought up the Grand Challenge on the forum before and nobody really cared...it's a SoCal event, only locals are going to do that and none/very few of them were going to run the $200X. If you were going to join forces, why not run a $200X event at a second location? Different budgets, a series vs. event, different rules, and different types of events (1/8 vs 1/4 mile) make the Gainesville Challenge and Grand Challenge very different IMO. If they were duplicate events that were just run by different people and at different locations, I'd see your point about joining forces. Slapping your sticker on their event and telling them how to have less screwed up rules (inspection, licensed and insured vehicles, recoup, etc.) isn't what I would call joining forces. No offense. It's a cool idea for a local organization, not so much for an international publication.

- I know, it's a big country. I think that no matter what we do, people will complain. It's human nature. I'm sorry we can't hold a Challenge event in Oregon, Chicago and every other city. On the other hand, so far we had a team drive in from Idaho twice--Portand is only 400 more miles away, and in the past we have paid appearance money for those driving in from states that touch the Pacific. This doesn't mean we're not ever going to do a "real" West Coast Challenge. Just answering some questions.

I had no idea you guys would chip in for West Coasters making an appearance. Of course, you would probably be much less willing to chip in on transport costs if there were a dozen coming from out west instead of one, but as far as I know that hasn't been a publicized offering. Us West Coasters weren't all hoping for a LOCAL event, just more local than Gainesville. After the "west coast bound" announcement I fully expected somewhere like Vegas, Salt Lake, Topeka, etc. that would be more central for everybody...not Portland, that's for sure. Vegas is just as far from me as San Diego, but it's a heck of a lot easier to plan for one trip to Vegas or Topeka than it is two or more trips to San Diego.

I'm not so much angry as I am disappointed and confused. Hopefully I get some better news with the UTCC #3 announcements, time will tell. I'm not going to get so butthurt about it in the future, I got my hopes up too much about GRM heading west for $2009 but I'll lower my expecations for the future.

Bryce

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