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March 27, 2010 2:53 p.m. wbjones HalfDork

Vigo wrote:

I dont know why everyone is recommending even semi-sporty cars for children? Why? Is this is a vicariously-living-through-your-children thing?

Even if the kid is interested in cars, doesnt mean you have to buy them something sporty. Buy them something SAFE, first and foremost. Buy them something completely expendable, too.

$5000 will get you a lot of car (mass and airbags). As to those who think trucks are not crashworthy, i advise you to consider that safety ratings are different for different sizes of vehicles, and a badly rated full-size pickup is still safer than a 5 star compact car, basically. I do think rangers and s10s are a little too small for that to count for much, though.

how come no ones suggested it... P71....
March 27, 2010 7:47 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

SVreX wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

SVreX wrote:

Pickup trucks??? What are you guys, crazy?

Here's a BIG thumbs down vote on that one.

They are not very crashworthy. Pickups are always later to adopt safety regs than passenger vehicles.

Airbags, side impact rails, crumple zones, collapsible steering wheels, rear impact headrests, side curtain airbags, anti-lock brakes, drop under engines, all came LATER in trucks than in passenger vehicles. That doesn't even mention fuel saddle tanks outside the frame rails.

Plus, they make the driver feel tough, even invincible. They encourage stinkin' thinkin' behind the wheel.

Guarantee there will be moments with a bunch of kids piled in the back, or 5 girls sitting in each other's laps in the cab.

Trucks are not cars. They have always been treated differently (with exception) when it comes to passenger safety.

Everything about this post is...

Well, wrong. At least for my kid. His first car is a truck.

If you buy your kid something they don't like, they won't respect it and will treat it like crap, including driving it like crap. Seen it way too many times over the last few decades of seeing teens in cars. Also, if they have no sweat equity into it, they won't respect it even if they like it, as it came too easily.

First off, your son's truck is awesome.

Secondly, I agree completely with everything you said about respect, sweat equity, etc. It can be applied to ANY vehicle (or anything else, for that matter). Not just trucks.

Thirdly, absolutely nothing you said proves my post wrong.

I was discussing safety, etc. The facts I stated on trucks are completely true. They were also in keeping with the original poster's question (regarding price, safety, airbags, seating for 4, etc.)

While I love the truck, and wouldn't mind it for my own kids, your statement that everything about my post was...well wrong, was...well wrong.

It's pretty hard to make the case for a truck based on safety facts. Awesome, yes. Safe, well...

Any car is as safe as the person driving it. You can die in new cars with airbags. People do. It's a false sense of safety that breeds lack of fear and lack of respect for the car, and a false sense of invincibility both in the kid AND in the parent. Driving the truck, even through the winter, safely, in all sorts of conditions including ice and snow, will ensure than he will be a better driver in ANY car he gets in, instead of having the car do all the braking, traction control, and padding for him. And he will respect the machine as a deadly weapon that won't fix his screw ups for him.

But then again, unlike most parents, I actually LIKE spending time with the kid and teaching him how to drive safely, responsibly AND with a good deal of performance car control...
March 27, 2010 7:56 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

I agree. I do the same.

I race with both my older kids, and both drive older vehicles (they love and respect) without airbags.

But the original poster specifically requested otherwise.

And from a purely statistical perspective, an older truck with no safety equipment is a significantly higher risk. I see them upside down in ditches all the time.

I train MY kids well. But I also have teenage employees, who I would not allow to drive my 1960 El Camino, even with perfect driving records. I don't want to have to explain something terrible to their parents.

Ask any insurance man...
March 27, 2010 9:46 p.m. Tommy Suddard SonDork

Vigo wrote:

As for the people saying accident avoidance is where it's at, i agree with you, but here's the thing.. overcontrolling and overcorrection cause a HUGE amount of accidents. Just because you miss the geo in front of you doesnt mean you miss the 200 year old oak tree you're now spinning towards. Understeer is the safe way to learn, and good abs and stability control will do a lot more for letting a kid avoid an accident than just giving him an old-tech car with cat-like reflexes and no safety net. Low limits and stability are where it's at.

I disagree. I think that stability control and ABS teach bad habits, habits that could come back to haunt you later. If all a person has ever experienced is a car that does everything for you, they will never learn the skills necessary to drive a car that doesn't.

Case in point: My next-door neighbor. She's a few years older than I am, and has had her license for two years. All she had ever driven was her mom's new civic or her dad's new SUV, both with all the safety nannies. When she got her own car, they put her in some older beige appliance, which didn't have ABS. A few months later, she got in an accident. She came up to a stop sign in the rain, and the wheels locked, so she slid into somebody (no injuries). She couldn't understand why the brakes "got worse all of a sudden" because she had never dealt with a car that didn't have ABS. They don't even teach brake modulation or anything remotely like it in drivers ed these days.
March 28, 2010 12:10 a.m. Vigo Reader

Case in point: My next-door neighbor. She's a few years older than I am, and has had her license for two years. All she had ever driven was her mom's new civic or her dad's new SUV, both with all the safety nannies. When she got her own car, they put her in some older beige appliance, which didn't have ABS. A few months later, she got in an accident. She came up to a stop sign in the rain, and the wheels locked, so she slid into somebody (no injuries). She couldn't understand why the brakes "got worse all of a sudden" because she had never dealt with a car that didn't have ABS. They don't even teach brake modulation or anything remotely like it in drivers ed these days.

That has more do to with lack of instruction than anything the car with ABS did wrong. Sounds like her parents threw her into a new car and said 'drive' and did nothing else. Nothing in that situation should be attributed to an abs-equipped car imposing bad habits. Guns dont kill people, and ABS cars dont make drivers brake late and badly.

The bottom line is that if she had been in a car with the safety features, she would not have hit anything. BOTTOM LINE. If she'd hit your uncle riding his bike and killed him or some such thing, you wouldnt give a E36 M3 about any redeeming qualities of the non-abs car she was driving.

As tjthom said and did: Give your kids instruction AND equipment that will allow them to live through their mistakes, and let them move into something more challenging and/or rewarding when they have established the financial stability and driving ability to do it on their own. As a parent your job, first and foremost, is not to entertain your kids with their first cars, but to allow them to learn without suffering loss of limb or life from their first, inevitable mistakes.

Now, their may be financial limitations in play if you are buying 92 accords and have multiple kids, but for $5000 to spend on ONE kid you can get a lot of safety in a car and there is NO reason that you should not. People only throw their kids into the swimming pool because they are there to scoop them out as well. Sink or swim on public roads means your kid will die alone, and you'll get the news alone, and you'll stay alone. "It wont happen to my kid..."? Famous last words. SAFETY.
March 28, 2010 1:07 a.m. Wowak SuperDork

Here are my list of important features for teens:

Two seats, or at least 2 doors with a hard to get into, cramped back seat. Its pretty well proven that teenagers get distracted when they pile a few friends in the car. Ways to get around this include helping teen build and install a "killer" speaker box that takes up the whole rear seat, but is removable for when dad needs a car with seats. Teens love cool stereos. Others will suggest a single-cab compact pickup, but I say NO to that, because of my next point:

Low center of gravity. Lets face it, your kid is probably going to crash a car eventually. It will be a lot better if they're not rolling that sport-ute that mom thought seemed "safer" because it was bigger and higher off the ground. Also helping little Timmy not roll his car is:

ABS. ABS is just a good idea. Seriously, its worth the effort to find a car with ABS. While you're at it,

Get something fun. Some people will cry that you shouldn't get anything "sporty" because that will encourage sonny to drive fast. Well let me break it to ya... even though it was almost 15 years ago, I remember being a new driver like it was yesterday, and I would drive ANYTHING fast. I won a street race in my mom's Ford Windstar. (I was very stupid and every day I look back and wonder by what fluke I survived.) So don't necessarily get the model with the biggest engine, but if there's one with sport suspension, get that. It might get little Timmy out of a crash or two. Which brings me to my next piece of advice: Whatever you put your kid in, immediately send them to the

Tire Rack/BMWCCA Street Survival School in it. Seriously, as soon as they pass the driving test, before they even START to develop bad habits or start to feel like "they're getting the hang of it." I sincerely believe that the Street Survival School SAVES LIVES. DO IT DO IT DO IT.

I'd like to see your kid grow up into a gearhead as much as you do.
March 28, 2010 7:01 a.m. racerboy000 New Reader

p71
March 31, 2010 2:51 a.m. CLNSC3 Reader

I have a few suggestions that others have not made...

My first car was a 1995 Acura Legend, and that was a great first car. Kinda sporty(at least for a 16 y/o), comfortable, safe and reliable.

After I wrecked that car(lol) I bought myself a 1996 Subaru Legacy. Another perfect car for a teenager. AWD, safe and reliable. This was also the first car I started racing(rallyX).

Another option is an early Lexus SC300/SC400(92-94). When I bought my first SC it was impossible to find a clean one under 10,000. These days you can get a nice example for around $5K, unless you are looking for a five speed. These cars are very safe, comfortable, sporty, reliable and nice enough that you should probably get your kid a pack of condoms to go along with the car...lol

I also agree with some of the other suggestions like an e30, p71, civic/integra(or most other honda products for that matter).

Josh
March 31, 2010 4:53 p.m. Slyp_Dawg Reader

billy3esq wrote:

Nobody's mentioned the Ford ZX2.

+1, I drive one now and do quite like it. unfortunately, it's an automatic (which is why I'm looking for something to replace it with now, something with a nice engine at the front, a proper 5 or 6 speed manual gearbox in the middle, and RWD at the rear. and not too big.

I'm 16 right now, and I'm in a similar situation. I've been considering nothing except small, light RWD sport coupes like the NA chassis Miata or the BMW Z3, although that BMW roundel is probably going to make me have to pay through the nose on insurance and most definitely will on parts costs and despite the relative pared-down-ness of the earlier Z3s compared to normal BMWs, might be more likely to be stolen. eventually parking downtown for college and all.

one thing, if you get a dedicated 2-seater like a Miata or a MR2 or something like that, pulling out the stock seats and replacing them with some fixed-back sports/racing seats with LOTS of side support might cut down on the ability to play with the significant other while still in the car. plus it's less to go wrong and will be better lateral support for autoXing and stuff of that nature
April 5, 2010 12:13 a.m. InigoMontoya Reader

m4ff3w wrote:

My kids first cars with be X1/9s. Safe, slow, can avoid accidents, can't fit more than one other hooligan and not much room to "play" with the significant other.

They will both work for and purchase them (or repay me) and learn to wrench on them.

Ironically, that was my first car, a 74 to boot.
April 5, 2010 8:13 a.m. racerdave600 Reader

A note on trucks. I agree with the statement that trucks are probably safer than cars under almost any accident situation, but I also think you are more likely as a novice driver to test that theory while driving one. My experience with trucks is that they do not shrink around you and you have to watch all four corners a lot more closely, and in newer trucks that are light years taller than older ones, have to be extremely careful while changing lanes. This does not bode well for the average teenager.

I've had two cars totalled in the past 3 years, both of them run over and pushed through my building at work by teenagers that lost control of their full sized trucks. It's hard enough to get soccer moms to look out of one and drive them responsibly, much less teenagers.
April 5, 2010 8:15 a.m. racerdave600 Reader

InigoMontoya wrote:

m4ff3w wrote:

My kids first cars with be X1/9s. Safe, slow, can avoid accidents, can't fit more than one other hooligan and not much room to "play" with the significant other.

They will both work for and purchase them (or repay me) and learn to wrench on them.

Ironically, that was my first car, a 74 to boot.

As a many many time X owner, I agree with that totally. Extremely safe, and you get to teach them electrical skills! Ironically, I gave my little brother one as his first car. He still talks about it all these years later!
April 5, 2010 10:05 a.m. Autolex HalfDork

Impreza, OLD Q45 (90's), P71, e36 318 or 325, 4 runner/rav4?
April 5, 2010 11:49 a.m. Vigo Reader

nice enough that you should probably get your kid a pack of condoms to go along with the car...lol

This applies to both sons and daughters, right?

If it would not be acceptible for a young woman, though, i would recommend that to avoid any double standards we should tell the young man to only stick it into other young men..

just kidding, here's hoping your son isnt a slut and my daughter isnt a playa'.
April 5, 2010 1:42 p.m. Sultan Reader

Vigo, No need to hope. My son a very honorable young man. On a side note giving condoms to teenagers is really one of the dumbest and laziest things I have ever heard. I know giving them a moral base is more work but they will be better adults.

I looked into the Acura Legend and they do have lower safety test numbers. Last week I studied MB W201 and W202 and I worry about the cost of ownership. Love the truck idea but I already have a F350.

Few of you have mentioned two seaters. Any thoughts on a second gen MR2?
April 5, 2010 5:58 p.m. Vigo Reader

Cool car, for sure. Non turbo also fairly slow. I personally think they are overpriced. They're also a little on the small side for getting into wrecks, i cant see them being safer than the Legend you mentioned looking up.

As for the truck thing, a concern was brought up about large trucks being too hard to handle. I agree with this. I also said that i think compact pickups are too small for their construction to be of too much help in a wreck..

Which is why i recommended a Dakota! They are not too big to handle but are definitely big enough to take some hits. The 97-up dakota especially has a great turning circle for a truck, and can be had cheaply. I ran one into an f350 when i was 16 and it held up VERY well. They can also be had easily as two seaters. A standard cab short bed 2-seater dakota is no bigger or more difficult to drive than the p71 mentioned, and it probably is easier to park and gets the same gas mileage.

Good luck in your search. Keep the ideas flowing, and you'll find what you're after.
April 5, 2010 6:15 p.m. cloud81918 New Reader

Saturn S-series (the coups are sporty looking and safe) or Any Subaru.

Both are pretty problem free, safe, cheap to maintain and fuel and easy on insurance.

If my son were old enough and I was buying him a car those would be my choices. But I will probably buy a rough older, interesting car when he gets about 12 or so and have him help me get it back together.

Chris_V and I are on the same wavelength. A great way to keep a kid out of trouble is have him and yourself put some work into it. It will be a learning experience, bring you closer together and will make it be an object of value in the young drivers eyes.

My first 4 wheels was my grandfathers old truck, I bought it from him for $1500. I had to replace the clutch before I could drive it, and I did the heads a few months after that. When it was down I'd hang out in the cab and armour-all everything while listening the the radio. I would do stupid things to myself, but never would I risk the truck. The first car I bought I totaled, 15 years later I still have the truck.
April 5, 2010 7:34 p.m. mw HalfDork

Get your kid a porsche! or a vette or something else they will absolutely love. Then you have a carrot to dangle infront of them to make them drive responsibly, do their homework, etc. Plus, you'll be the coolest parent ever. (this may not actually be the best advice, luckily I have 15 years to think about it before my daughter is driving age)

I drove a firefly in highschool and it really wasn't cool. It was slow and I still drove like an idiot with 7 other people packed into it. Luckily nothing bad ever happened, but there sure was potential for it.

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