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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » what's the big deal about "engine start" buttons on new cars?

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March 1, 2010 8:55 a.m. Raze HalfDork

I spoke with my wallet, I bought an 07 Ranger Sport 1 year used from the Dealer (would have bought new if there had been one available) that has manual everything, doorlocks, windows, mirrors, transmission, lights, windshield wipers, etc. THIS IS AFTER OWNING 2 CADILLACS, one older, one newer, but keeping all the electricals in order was a PITA!

I've put 1 new set of tires on it after 2 years of ownership while my wife's more complex 2007 Camry has had plenty of electrical issues (not including recalls). Sometimes mechanical simplicity is golden...
March 1, 2010 9:02 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

Computers are simply not easy to conclusively check and aren't as reliable as you'd like to think. Just ask any tech here or buy a VW/Audi.

My Gawd, truer words were ne'er spoken! The worst part about this kind of stuff: when it comes to swapping in a 'known good' computer for whatever, when the tech gets the box there is generally a sticker which says 'Breaking this seal prohibits the return of this part', or in other words you better hope you are right 'cause the manufacturer ain't taking it back. This even happens when cars are under warranty; the manufacturer will tell you if it didn't fix it, take it back off. But then they tell you via that sticker that no they won't take it back.

Many modules are theft sensitive, meaning they must be programmed to the vehicle (called 'burning in the VIN') and that means the car won't even start until that's done. Once programmed, it can't be swapped to another car.

Someone on this board mentioned that his SAAB's computer had to be replaced if the keys were lost and that would cost more than the car was worth. So we will see lots of cars dying like sterile beasts because all this highly reliable electronic wizardry can't be repaired for a reasonable cost.
March 1, 2010 9:08 a.m. DrBoost Dork

alfadriver wrote:

Gearheadotaku wrote:

We ARE speaking with our wallets, by not purchaseing these overly complex cars. However, since we are such a small portion of the market, it has little effect. If a manufacturer were to produce a simple, light weight , rear drive coupe / convertible, it would sell well to this group. But again we're a small group so its not a lot of units to sell.

You think you are. But you are not.

How many people here bought their Miata brand new in the last 5 years? I'd guess very, very few. Especially compared to who bought used Miatas in the last year.

Basically, you can look at it in two ways- either you are too small to matter, or nobody buys new cars. Either way, it doesn't matter- no OEM in their right mind would take this board's opinion and run with it, when many orders of magnitude more buyers ARE paying for it.

Still, rant all you want- just don't expect anything from it, when your neighbors are buying cars with those exact features you dispise so much.

Eric

Eric speaks the truth. We SAY we are voting with our wallets but how many of us chose a 1992 miata vs a 2009 miata? I'd guess none of us. Maybe we chose a 1992 miata vs a 2009 camry but Toyota will (correctly) deduce that we chose the miata for the dynamics it offers over the camry. The sad truth is we live in a disposable society. Folks buy new cars with the intention to get rid of it in less than 5 years. The car is warrantied for that time in most cases. It's us poor schlubs that are stuck with the used car after that point that pay the real price.
March 1, 2010 9:56 a.m. alex Dork

Maybe someday they'll figure out how to incorporate the Start function into the column switch, so you can do it all in one motion. Wouldn't that be more efficient?
March 1, 2010 10:24 a.m. Raze HalfDork

alex wrote:

Maybe someday they'll figure out how to incorporate the Start function into the column switch, so you can do it all in one motion. Wouldn't that be more efficient?

your sarcasm echos louder and truer than anything i've ever heard...
March 1, 2010 10:24 a.m. Gearheadotaku Dork

I think most people buying new cars either don't care about the latest stuff, or see no way around it and simply accept it. Those who do know try to avoid as much as they can, but again there is little choice much of the time. I would not call anything built after 2000 "simple" Even a lot of the 90's stuff is a mess. Automatic climate control (when equipped) and body control computers have made "simple" a thing of the past. Dr. Boost's power lock story is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. Mechanical parts can be serviced, printed curcuits get replaced. You can't go into your basement and pound out a new curcuit board or computer chip on your work bench. Granted, most folks won't make a lock rod, but at least it is an option.
March 1, 2010 11:00 a.m. MadScientistMatt Dork

Gearheadotaku wrote:

Mechanical systems can be serviced, jury-rigged, rebuilt, etc. Computer chips and curcuit boards, not so much.

They can with enough determination, biggest problem is getting the epoxy potting out of there...
March 1, 2010 11:19 a.m. alfadriver Dork

Raze wrote:

I spoke with my wallet, I bought an 07 Ranger Sport 1 year used from the Dealer (would have bought new if there had been one available) that has manual everything, doorlocks, windows, mirrors, transmission, lights, windshield wipers, etc. THIS IS AFTER OWNING 2 CADILLACS, one older, one newer, but keeping all the electricals in order was a PITA!

I've put 1 new set of tires on it after 2 years of ownership while my wife's more complex 2007 Camry has had plenty of electrical issues (not including recalls). Sometimes mechanical simplicity is golden...

As soon as you said "used" OEM's can ignore you. That's not paying any money to the OEM. When you buy new, they listen, that's it.
March 1, 2010 11:25 a.m. alfadriver Dork

Gearheadotaku wrote:

I think most people buying new cars either don't care about the latest stuff, or see no way around it and simply accept it. Those who do know try to avoid as much as they can, but again there is little choice much of the time. I would not call anything built after 2000 "simple"

You probably would be surprised how people are choosing the latest stuff over not.

Let's put it this way, Sync is one primary reason Focus sales are as good as they are. And you have to pay EXTRA to have Sync on a Focus. As new versions of Sync come out, and are available on more lines, sales have been seeing bumps that can't be ignored. That's just ONE sample of new stuff.

Maybe people we know want simple, but the people who actually pay for brand new cars- they are very different. I'd be willing to bet that 30 years ago, the people represented on this board would say that you could have lived without A/C, since it wasn't on all cars back in the 70's. Now, it's almost impossible to get a car without it. Same goes for power windows, mirrors, locks, etc... What will be the next gadget to have to become standard- who knows?

Eric
March 1, 2010 11:59 a.m. rogerbvonceg New Reader

Run_Away wrote:

I work at a Nissan dealership and I hate them, simply because you have to have the brake pedal depressed for it to start the motor. This means getting in the car every time you want to start the engine, something that is a pain in the ass because the hoist doesn't leave much room to open the door.

My 96 Ford with regular keys and manual tran. requires me to depress the clutch to start the engine.
March 1, 2010 12:05 p.m. rogerbvonceg New Reader

I get tired of my keys swinging against my knee while I drive.
March 1, 2010 12:27 p.m. Gearheadotaku Dork

When SYNC breaks, needs some sort of update, etc whats that gonna cost? will Ford provide parts and service 15 years from now? Will people be prying them out of the dash and trashing them for a $100 radio because it costs more than the cars worth to fix? We've all seen cases were a $700 car needs a $1200 part to fix it when a simpler design would have been $100. End result is a useful car getting throw away because someone had a "better idea" New tech isn't always better tech.

Yes, I like A/C, cruise and power windows. CD players are great over cassette. But I don't need a sound system that cost $1000, and power acc. were around and working fine before comupter controls.

Sure, I'm ranting a bit, this is a sore subject for me. However, since I'm poor and stupid, I have little voice in the matter.
March 1, 2010 3:26 p.m. mad_machine PowerDork

so.. we have start buttons.. when do cars get "reset" buttons so they can really be like nintendo?
March 1, 2010 3:29 p.m. rogerbvonceg New Reader

Most people would really like an "easy" button, since they see driving as a necessary chore. Some day, it will probably be mandatory safety equipment.
March 1, 2010 3:48 p.m. Raze HalfDork

mad_machine wrote:

so.. we have start buttons.. when do cars get "reset" buttons so they can really be like nintendo?

I want a 'select' button to switch to 2 drivers instead of 1!
March 1, 2010 3:57 p.m. Run_Away New Reader

rogerbvonceg wrote:

My 96 Ford with regular keys and manual tran. requires me to depress the clutch to start the engine.

MrMook wrote:

So....you hate cars with clutch pedals as well?

I do grumble a bit when it comes to starting a manual car on the hoist, yes. Don't hate them though. The percentage of stickshift cars I see is very low. I also tend to set the parking brake on 6 speed Versas, then attempt to remove the rear drums. My own car does have the clutch switch disabled.
March 1, 2010 5:04 p.m. SupraWes Dork

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Rockauto.com also requires a damn start button for some reason.

I hate the berkleying Flash catalog, I have a direct link to the HTML catalog!
March 1, 2010 7:12 p.m. DrBoost Dork

Gearheadotaku wrote: ...... and power acc. were around and working fine before comupter controls.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think MB had power seats with memory settings without computers in the 70's?
March 1, 2010 7:47 p.m. ignorant UltimaDork

DrBoost wrote:

Ignorant, you are talking about apples and oranges here PLC's are different from the systems in cars.

Nope. They are one in the same. If the ECM is doing the job of a relay it is the same.

Do a test.

Wire a PLC to act as relay. Then actuate said relay like 30Million times. Do the same with a real relay and see which one lasts longer.
March 1, 2010 9:14 p.m. RealMiniDriver Dork

ignorant wrote:

Wire a PLC to act as relay. Then actuate said relay like 30Million times. Do the same with a real relay and see which one lasts longer.

When one of the PLCs in any of the four CNC machines in our shop pukes (each machine has puked at least once), that machine is down for at least a day, usually a week, waiting for the manufacturer tech to come fix it. If a relay in any of our five 32+ year old manual machines lets out the magic smoke, which is rare, we run down the street to the electrician supply vendor for a new one. Old machine is back online within the hour.
March 2, 2010 8:00 a.m. Junkyard_Dog HalfDork

RealMiniDriver wrote:

ignorant wrote:

Wire a PLC to act as relay. Then actuate said relay like 30Million times. Do the same with a real relay and see which one lasts longer.

When one of the PLCs in any of the four CNC machines in our shop pukes (each machine has puked at least once), that machine is down for at least a day, usually a week, waiting for the manufacturer tech to come fix it. If a relay in any of our five 32+ year old manual machines lets out the magic smoke, which is rare, we run down the street to the electrician supply vendor for a new one. Old machine is back online within the hour.

Plus it'll still run after the nuclear apocalypse so you can build weapons to fight the evil robot overlords. Which reminds me I need to find the points from the old Volvo to keep them handy....
March 2, 2010 1:20 p.m. benzbaron HalfDork

The thing that gets me about all this technology is I think that it isn't as secure as everyone wants to make it seem. I remember a couple of years ago someone stole a new lexus from the mayor of pleasanton, the car had all the bells and whistles but the thieves were able to get around the electronics to steal it. I figure that if you have the engine start button without having to use the key it means the key is radiating a signal that enables the cars ignition so the button works. What is stopping someone from copying the keys signal and stealing the car? These keys are just like a garage door opener and I'm sure a computer guru could clone the signal.

Dr. Boost, I don't thing MB had any seat memory settings for cars in the 70's and if they did it would be all vacuum and not work anyways. Maybe on the 600 limo or 6.9er but I've never heard of it. Back in the day mercedes didn't go crazy with electronic, vacuum yes, electronics no.

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