When is it time to switch cars (Rallycross related)?

EvanB said:

eastside Utah Johnny Montana said:

In reply to irish44j :

 Locally, the only Miatas that are faster have forced induction.  Only regular  E30 in our region is a 318i (I think), so its power to weight ratio is not the best.  

Uh oh, here we go. 

 

Okay, the Englands may have beat me before the car had a supercharger, I can’t remember...

Or am I about to set off an OVR - DC Region war?  

Even at a specific event, direct comparisons aren’t entirely valid, since there is such a thing as home field advantage...

In driving a lot of other people's cars for rallycross there were definitely times that I lifted or braked excessively or similar out of mechanical empathy.

It's quite likely that those consistently faster than you are also more willing to thrash their vehicles.

Knowing how you drove a few years ago, I would be comfortable going out on a limb and saying that your car could be driven faster than you are driving it. But, it might break more often, or at least require more maintenance.

If you're tired of the neon, try something different. If you want to finish further towards the pointy end of the field, work on your driving. You have a limited slip in your car now right? If so, with good tires, it should be able to compete for fastest 2wd.

In reply to cghstang :

I've gotten faster since then, but definitely still have quite a bit of mechanical empathy, maybe more than I used to since Lori tends not to drive a second car there anymore, and our current venue is farther from home than it used to be.  I'm sure there is more time to pick up, both if I could drive more aggressively in some spots, and with more control in others.

I wouldn't say I'm tired of the Neon, I guess I'm mainly stalled out.  Not sure I'll get much faster with it without doing something drastic, and not sure I want to just sit where I am.  Spending several thousand on a WRX just to end up where I am right now would be really annoying, though, if it turns out that I can't drive one of those any faster.  Buying a RWD whale, and struggling to not be in last place might be fun.

Edit:  Yeah, limited slip and a 2.4 swap.  Probably puts me close to the same power to weight ratio as an early WRX.  I'm usually not that far off from the Miatas, but they still beat me reasonably consistently.

EvanB said:

eastside Utah Johnny Montana said:

In reply to irish44j :

 Locally, the only Miatas that are faster have forced induction.  Only regular  E30 in our region is a 318i (I think), so its power to weight ratio is not the best.  

Uh oh, here we go. 

 

I resisted replying to Pete last night ;)

I fully agree that 318i power to weight ratio is not the best (though it's unclear if he means the early 318 (100hp M10) or the late 318is (140hp M42)). Power to weight in an e30 is easily improved, and without FI, if that's what matters to you.

I'm not sure why it matters if an e30 is faster than your Neon, seeing as they don't run in the same classes.Literally nobody cares who the FTD is at a rallycross, unless that person is in their class.

irish44j said: Literally nobody cares who the FTD is at a rallycross, unless that person is in their class.

I dunno about that.  A guy in SF (or even PF or MF) taking FTD or 2nd place overall despite a good field of M4 cars can get some attention. 

In reply to rslifkin 

I'll rephrase....I'm sure someone "cares." What I meant is that it doesn't *matter*  any more than who has the best vinyl wrap graphics on his car. Sure, if a 2WD car takes FTD over all the Subies, that person will get a "nice job" or high five from a few people and has a bit of bragging rights I guess.  Andy Thomas and Shawn Roberts on here have gotten a number of  FTDs in 2WD cars....maybe they'll chime in as to whether they care....

Maybe I don't care since I never have lol

rslifkin said:

irish44j said: Literally nobody cares who the FTD is at a rallycross, unless that person is in their class.

I dunno about that.  A guy in SF (or even PF or MF) taking FTD or 2nd place overall despite a good field of M4 cars can get some attention. 

We usually announce first overall at awards ceremony, and sometimes ho was fastest in the opposite heat of FTD.  It feels good if you win and it's also interesting to see how different classes stack up.

I got it twice.  Once in the silver RX-7 on worn out Eagle STs, which shocked me, but I was in the groove that day.  Also, this was back when it was scored single fastest run and not cumulative.

I’ve only managed overall best time once, and that wasn’t in the Neon.  Took it in a technical course driving a stock 2.2 Legacy wagon.  It’s one of my favorite rallycross memories.

Just out of curiosity have you had one of the faster drivers drive your car?  The other alternative is to see if you can worm your way into a higher level car by offering to pay for the owners entry fees etc. You could also offer a paid entry in your car to a faster driver.

For our local rallycross we sometimes borrowed cars from Budget minded or Enterprising types because the bill didn't Hertz as much; typically we'd end up with a Neon and we were competitive with them. Not as competitive as with my Volvo 140 rally car but still did well.

We ran on dry lake beds so driving styles may have varied from events back east. I'd say keep the Neon and work on your driving as well as the car. This is not to say your driving is inadequate but the cars set up may not fit your natural style. I'll give you a couple of examples:

1. Vintage road race  914 driver; car is set up with oversteer, it's fast this way but the driver isn't comfortable with this and isn't likely to ever be. We discussed it and came to th conclusion that while the car is faster as set up he'd be faster and more consistent with a softer rear bar.

2. Me on my Beta 520 dual sport bike; almost all of my riding (road racing to off road) is on 2 stroke 125s. I'm not very good at sub 5 mph stuff, it's a combination of how you use the clutch on a 125 and the polar opposite techniques (sub 5 mph shoulders turn with the bars) so I routinely stalled the big 4 stroke  and then tipped over. I worked on being mindful about the clutch at walking pace and lowered the gearing to make it a little easier. Installing a Rekluse clutch (centrifugal unit) would have fixed it as well but I didn't want to pony up the $400.

I was in a sort of stuck spot with my vintage race Datsun but decided to fine tune it and that has taken it from 10th-12th to top 5. Developing a car can be very satisfying. From this post it sounds as if your not a guy who's going to benefit from an overly aggressive set up. Your not willing to drive in Yosemite Sam mode (Ya Mule Ya Mule). I'd work on dampers and making sure the motor will pull through sections of the course with minimal shifting.

While I tend to preserve the car, I do have it dialed in to my driving style pretty well (minus a few blown struts I’ll be replacing). With the 2.4, I can get it into 2nd gear and leave it there, while the suspension is setup up for the car to be fairly stable, but capable of being rotated quickly with a little left foot braking.

I really do need to get someone else in the driver’s seat.

It's predictable, reliable, and pretty well dialed in.  A turbo would fit nicely between the head and the firewall and then you wouldn't have those problems anymore!   If you recall, though, my car was very reliable for several seasons once I replaced the fuel pump and before I overboosted the engine and that was a result of me not paying attention to the warning signs.  So don't let my beast dissuade you from making your own.

Really though, it's supposed to be fun so if you're not having a good time that should be your metric for time to change something.  Maybe that's a tweak to your car, maybe that's getting a hardtop for your Miata, maybe it's taking the easy way out and getting a Subaru.

fyi...Stockish manual trans wrx is not as much fun to rallycross as stockish neon. If you go to a stockish wrx from your neon, you are likely to be frustrated. Auto trans wrx may be different. From my limited subaru experiences, stock class non-turbo subaru is more fun than stock or not adequately prepped wrx.

cghstang said:

fyi...Stockish manual trans wrx is not as much fun to rallycross as stockish neon. If you go to a stockish wrx from your neon, you are likely to be frustrated. Auto trans wrx may be different. From my limited subaru experiences, stock class non-turbo subaru is more fun than stock or not adequately prepped wrx.

I'll say the auto trans WRX does do better.  AWD system is a bit different and the torque converter helps with smoothness and working around turbo lag.  I've seen someone come very close to FTD in one on half worn snows at the first rallycross they'd ever done. 

Any opinions on the STI?  I'd hope the torque from the 2.5 and the steeper gearing would help a bit.

I've also heard the Evo X MR's dual clutch setup is awesome, if you add a cooler to keep it out of limp mode.

I've never driven an STI or Evo .

I always heard that the 2nd gear in the sti 6-speed was pretty much perfect for rallycross. And 1st in the pre-X Evo's goes to like 48mph or something useable for 98% of national style (not OVR NTR fast) courses.

If you can swing an STI or Evo, I'd say go for it!

cghstang said:

 

If you can swing an STI or Evo, I'd say go for it!

Can't yet, but if I save up my pennies for a bit. 

I think it's mostly a matter of what will be the most fun/value for dollar.  Cheapest option is either to keep the Neon or sell it and buy something of similar or lower value.  The Evo or STI would be a huge increase in cost, but could be a lot of fun, and give me a better idea of where I stand.

In reply to eastside Utah Johnny Montana :

The STI's AWD is more like the auto WRX one (but with more user control).  And yeah, I'd expect the bigger engine will reduce the "no power until it spools" issue. 

Auto trans WRX is hilarious fun for rallyx, if I got another WRX I would look for an auto (or forester xt). STI is awesome stock, it just has power all the time. I have never driven an EVO but unless you find a screaming deal on a STI I would rather go EVO 8 or 9 for similar price. 

Being an outsider (I’ve never rally-crossed), it sounds like you’re singularly limited by your willingness (lack of) to drive the car harder. As someone who wouldn’t tackle certain obstacles driving off road in a 4x4 because I couldn’t afford to bend a tie-rod or snap an axle and be stranded, I’d hate to have had my abilities “judged” using those limitations.

Sure seems like it’s the driver.  Not your talent, just your desire to drive home.

eastside Utah Johnny Montana said:

While I tend to preserve the car, I do have it dialed in to my driving style pretty well (minus a few blown struts I’ll be replacing). With the 2.4, I can get it into 2nd gear and leave it there, while the suspension is setup up for the car to be fairly stable, but capable of being rotated quickly with a little left foot braking.

I really do need to get someone else in the driver’s seat.

I told Miles that I was going to tell you that you should ask him to drive your car.

eastside Utah Johnny Montana said:

Any opinions on the STI?  I'd hope the torque from the 2.5 and the steeper gearing would help a bit.

I've also heard the Evo X MR's dual clutch setup is awesome, if you add a cooler to keep it out of limp mode.

I've heard that they only overheat if you left foot brake.  Touching the brake pedal makes the trans controller reduce load on the active clutch pack (something like 40%), so if you are on the brake and accelerator at the same time, the clutch slips a bunch and you torch the fluid.

Solution:  Don't DO that!

Are the blown struts a regular thing? Just out of curiosity.

For sure get another driver in there, brain storming is always a good thing. I was at a track day yesterday with the 914 driver I mentioned above. Long story short he's gone from a 2:56 down to a 2:53.8s. 

Blown (rear) struts seem to make a front or all wheel drive car faster.

Curious.

Tom1200 said:

Are the blown struts a regular thing? Just out of curiosity.

For sure get another driver in there, brain storming is always a good thing. I was at a track day yesterday with the 914 driver I mentioned above. Long story short he's gone from a 2:56 down to a 2:53.8s. 

I wouldn't say they're too common, but expecting more than a couple years worth of events out of them can be a little optimistic, at least if you run a pretty rough course like we do.

cghstang said:

I always heard that the 2nd gear in the sti 6-speed was pretty much perfect for rallycross. And 1st in the pre-X Evo's goes to like 48mph or something useable for 98% of national style (not OVR NTR fast) courses.

Yuck.  Our 2nd gear goes to 57mph, and I can't recall the last course I drove where I didn't hit 3rd.