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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Where do you say "These cars just don't handle"?

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May 26, 2011 9:10 p.m. friedgreencorrado SuperDork

Vigo wrote: As for the last part, i actually had an interesting experience that sort of fits there when i took my Aries to $2009 challenge. At the challenge, GRM staff were racing an 09 or maybe '10 miata with some kind of sport package. The aries was slightly faster on the Auto-x. I think both had about the same amount of tire (i was on 215/45r16 street tires). I also got the chance to hop into someone's (forget the name) stock 1.6 miata on r-comps. I got one run in it and went almost 2 seconds faster than the aries, the new miata, and the owner. My strongest impression from that car was how nice it was to not have to think about the gas pedal. Floor it and steer. It CANT make too much power. In the Aries, 70% of the driving happens at the gas pedal.

Dude, sounds like you can drive a lil bit. If you like FWD (no flame, I do too), see if you can borrow someone's ST Civic.
May 27, 2011 12:20 p.m. Vigo Dork

It is real easy to make an Acclaim or Spirit handle once you figure out that G-body components work with little or no modification

I think my spirit has the front swaybar and rear springs from an 88 shelby z, the 11" brakes all around from a 90 shelby VNT, a modified track bar using a leftover daytona bar for parts, a boxed in rear axle, and.. 2g neon struts/springs in the front.

So add neons to the list of donors.

I definitely would like to drive an ST civic. I guess i should ask around..
May 27, 2011 12:35 p.m. dogbreath Reader

I drive RWD because it's more fun, not because it's 'better.'
May 27, 2011 12:45 p.m. turboswede SuperDork

Modify the sway bar to use better end links and you'll reduce the lifting that happens on the inside front tire, you may need to increase spring rate to compensate as the stock solution causes the sway bar to act as a torsion spring because it binds so badly.
May 27, 2011 3:26 p.m. Appleseed SuperDork

Jeff Schwartz's Cadillac. That thing can corner.
May 27, 2011 3:31 p.m. ransom Reader

turboswede wrote:

...you may need to increase spring rate to compensate as the stock solution causes the sway bar to act as a torsion spring because it binds so badly.

I've suddenly come to understand why some forum software has that animated smiley smashing its head into a brick wall now...
May 27, 2011 3:55 p.m. Vigo Dork

Modify the sway bar to use better end links and you'll reduce the lifting that happens on the inside front tire, you may need to increase spring rate to compensate as the stock solution causes the sway bar to act as a torsion spring because it binds so badly.

I started that conversion on my aries (using nissan endlinks) but had to stop when i didnt have a tap that could put threads in the swaybar metal. Then i got the tap and never went back to it. Figures...

Lemme tell you about the time i started cutting springs to lower a car and couldnt figure out why it wasnt going down, only to find out that swaybar was in upside down, holding the entire car up. I fixed it and found out i had overcut and ruined the springs. Drrrrp.
May 27, 2011 4:04 p.m. White_and_Nerdy Reader

Another good example is in the GRM Holy Trinity - not Miata, not E30, but P71. The Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and freaking Town Car are not known as awesomely handling cars. Yet all of them are just a P71 suspension swap away from handling pretty darn good for such a big car. No Miata, for sure, but Miatas don't have back seats or 4 body trunks.

The definitive answer to the original question is "it depends." Sometimes you need major modification to make it handle well, yet there are examples that prove it can be done (Cherokee, for example). Others are just a corporate parts bin raid away from a fairly easy conversion.
May 27, 2011 4:09 p.m. WilberM3 HalfDork

Appleseed wrote:

Jeff Schwartz's Cadillac. That thing can corner.

that. is. awesome.
May 31, 2011 9:18 a.m. e_pie New Reader

4eyes wrote:

I don't understand why ALL cars aren't designed to handle predictably. (And by predictably I don't mean terminal under-steer)

The people who worship at the alter of "ride quality" can have their tug-boat ride with tall soft springs, and those of us who would trade softness for agility, could be satisfied with stiffer springs and sway-bars. But the core suspension geometry should remain the same. Okay maybe different durometer urethane in the bushings, but that could be an easy swap.

I don't understand why it is acceptable to design a car that doesn't go where it is steered, but instead gradually runs off the road on the outside of the corner. How is that considered safe?

Because in our age of lawyers and finger pointing, if a car slides off the road in a straight line going forwards, clearly you were driving too fast. But if a car does the same thing, only backwards, clearly it's a design flaw because the car spun, nothing to do with you going too fast.
May 31, 2011 9:22 a.m. Jay SuperDork

Appleseed wrote:

Jeff Schwartz's Cadillac. That thing can corner.
May 31, 2011 10:13 a.m. nderwater Dork

...but grip does not equal handling, even though it certainly does improve track times. Handling is ultimately about feel, about responsiveness and balance regardless of grip level. Heavy cars, nose-heavy cars, cars with high centers of gravity - these will never have the same feel as a light weight, well balanced car with similar mods. But the further you go up the modification slope, the difference in feel will diminish.

Where the rubber hits the ground, all cars are four contact patches arranged in a rectangle. The more spring rate and roll stiffness you add, the better damping you add, the less influence the suspension geometry has because the tire is doing more of the work. So the poo-tastic handling stock Sentra I mentioned on the last page would be a light-year more capable car if fitted with r-compound tires, stiff springs & sways, and tripple-adjustable Motons. The increase in available grip would be astounding, and handling would be improved.
May 31, 2011 10:32 a.m. pinchvalve SuperDork

Certain things, like weight carried up high, an oddly placed center of gravity, and wheels well inboard of the corners of the car can never be improved through sticky tires or nice shocks.

Just not meant to handle.
May 31, 2011 10:41 a.m. nderwater Dork

Hotlinks!
May 31, 2011 10:42 a.m. WilberM3 Dork

i'm surprised that yellow 3 wheeler thing doesnt have skidplates on the front lower corners as i'm sure that's a likely scenario...
May 31, 2011 12:09 p.m. nderwater Dork

There was a Top Gear episode where Jeremy spent five minutes rolling an old Reliant Robin like that one over onto its side again and again every time he took a turn. Then the Stig took it for a hot lap and rolled it in the first corner. In a later episode, Ken Block was invited to the test track and he rolled it in the first corner too.
June 3, 2011 4:24 a.m. snipes Reader

Has any one jumped into the stock version of their track/race/autoX car and thought "WOW this is much better". I've had this thought a number of times. For all the better (higher limit) handling of our modified cars, on the street a stock car can inspire much more confidence! Stock cars are happier over bumps, their tires load and let go gradually and the compliance built in to them seems to find good traction in bad conditions. What works for a car on the "limit" does not always seem to work on the way to it. God help my either of my cars on the street, at night, in the rain.
June 3, 2011 7:17 a.m. Slyp_Dawg HalfDork

Honestly, I have never run into that one Snipes, my track rat Miata is boatloads more fun to drive and nicer day-to-day with the FM 2.0 kit, even with the shocks adjusted to 5F/4R, you can still feel the bumps, yes, and it occasionally rattles like it's about to fall apart (more due to my laziness in not putting the decklid carpeting back on yet, but it is what it is) but hitting bumps with the rear end no longer feels like I'm sitting in a preproduction James Bond ejector seat, and the ride on the highway is improved, even if I do have to turn about 3750-4000RPM in top gear just to keep up with the speed limit signs.
the stock 185/60-R14 Goodyear Hydragrips do seem less than pleased about this suspension package, though, just an excuse to bump up to 205/50-R15 *specs on a nice looking/light 15x7
I will say that I have never had the displeasure of driving a newer Toyota in anger, unless you count a '97 Tercel with an automatic as being "newer", and surprisingly enough, that thing handles decently, despite being 100% stock and at about 100K miles
June 3, 2011 9:26 a.m. Wally SuperDork

Usually after if comes flying off the track and lands on top of the Coke machine

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