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  • walterj

    Aug. 29, 2008 11:44 a.m. walterj HalfDork

    I am planning to begin the cage in my E30 - previously I've had much smaller projects and just took pipe to a local guy to have bends done but I am going to buy my own this time... because I'll need it for an extended period and can think of a few other projects to use it for. I suppose I can always sell it if that turns out to be wrong.

    I see the JD Squared Model-3, and pro-tools 105 as both priced the same, look the same and are claiming superiority over other "like benders". Both support hydraulic assist for tough jobs or future expansion, etc... so, which is the one to buy? Are either of them competent?

    Is there a better or more affordable option that will do the job?

    Do one of you have one to lease for the winter maybe?

  • Apexcarver

    Aug. 29, 2008 12:09 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

    sorry, i had to

  • RobL

    Aug. 29, 2008 12:20 p.m. RobL New Reader

    I have a great picture... Let me dig it up...

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 29, 2008 12:21 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    I bought a Pro Bend 105 mainly because they don't rope you in with a low price for the bender itself and then start tacking on all the extras. When you buy the kit, you get everything you need. Pro Tools will sell them that way (individual pieces), if you want. I blew some extra green on the 5/8" plate HD model. The 240 degree die option is great, too.

  • RobL

    Aug. 29, 2008 12:26 p.m. RobL New Reader

    It's real simple...

    the one you are talking about needs to be bolted into a concrete bed. We looked at it when we were going to buy ours. It also is $300 plus another $250 for a die set. We ended up with this: http://www.pro-tools.com/200.htm We've built two cages with it so far and I'm very happy with it.

  • walterj

    Aug. 29, 2008 12:55 p.m. walterj HalfDork

    The 105 and 200 end up being priced pretty close if you go for the 5/8 model with the stand and everything... is there a limitation for one or the other? I like the portability of the 200 and I don't need to put studs in the floor of my garage.

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 29, 2008 1:09 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    I looked at the 200 as well, it's a nicely designed piece. Its one main drawback, which may or may not be important in your case, is that it wil only do a 90 degree bend. If you think you might have need for bends from 90 to 180 degrees, that's a drawback. Since one of the ideas rattling around in my head is an A Mod car, I'd need the extra degrees of bend capacity.

    I haven't had the chance to mount my bender yet, I plan to put Red Heads (concrete anchors) in the floor with threaded inserts. That way I can remove it and put it out of the way when it's not needed.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that the 200 does not have a degree wheel, you use a bubble level to determine the angle of bend and it's available for an additional $50. My 105 included a CNC machined degree wheel and pointer.

  • ThatKid

    Aug. 29, 2008 1:28 p.m. ThatKid New Reader

    You can build your own.

    http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376183

  • walterj

    Aug. 29, 2008 1:29 p.m. walterj HalfDork

    I do like the idea of being able to do a 180 bend and I suppose its not that big of a deal to drill and anchor it in the floor with removable studs so I'm not constantly bloodying my shins.

    Now... so what tubing notchers do you like? I can't think of a case where I want to make an offset join so I'm leaning toward the basic bench mount one.

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 29, 2008 1:43 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    I currently have a cheapie HF tubing notcher. It's lasted through two cages, but it has its drawbacks such as not being able to make a cut on two axis. So, I have been thinking of a two axis notcher (pricey) or a set of Pipe Masters.

    Fuzzy pic, but you get the idea.

    pipemastertools.com

  • Aug. 29, 2008 1:45 p.m. mistanfo Dork

    I prefer my benders to involve lots of good old Canadian Whiskey, but that's just me...

    And now on with the regularily scheduled thread.

  • RobL

    Aug. 29, 2008 1:46 p.m. RobL New Reader

    On the degree wheel, yeah but a basic bubble/pointer level does it for us. $10 at Sears.

    We haven't done a 180 bend but we have done >90. You just need to reposition the tube in the die and move the tube support back.

    We picked up the HF notcher. I mounted it to my drill press and we notched all our tubes with only one bimetal bit. We notched slow and with a lot of lube. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42324

    I let someone else mount it to the base and I think it's bent now. But for $50...

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 29, 2008 3:13 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    By the way, I thought I'd not need to make an offset joint. I then wound up with 4 when I was upgrading the Abomination's roll cage. That was a PITA, test fit then trim, test fit then trim, test fit.... you get the idea. At least I had the plasma cutter to make it slightly fun. I'd much rather have done it all in one cut. Plus, if you have a shallow angle they are a beeyotch to cut with a hole saw. Cut halfway with a hole saw, then cut off the waste, then holesaw again... arrgh.

  • John Brown

    Aug. 29, 2008 3:50 p.m. John Brown UltimaDork

    Carpenters and cage builder will both tell you that the trim fit trim fit method is better than the cut crap method.

  • Izzy's Cages

    Aug. 29, 2008 6:06 p.m. Izzy's Cages New Reader

    I'll throw a few pennies in the pile...

    Either model you've talked about will be fine. If you think you'll be doing more than one cage/project, hydraulic is a very good investment. Much easier to make accurate bends. If you think you'll do more than just tube work (fences, scroll work, art stuff etc) a Hossfeld is what you want.

    Personally, I've yet to make a 180 degree bend in a production car chassis. Formula hoops, yes, but a 90 should fit the bill. IIRC, Speedway Motors has a portable bender (probably the same thing as the pirate link above).

    For a notcher... my first 10 cages were done with a HF notcher and lots of lube on the bearing/shaft. I have a JMR notcher now and have had zero issues with it in the last 27 cages. You will ALWAYS need to dress the notches no matter what so get yourself 2 or 3 angle grinders. One with a wire wheel, one with a cut-off wheel and one with a grinding or flap wheel.

    The Pipemaster isn't really needed on normal notches. I pull mine out maybe once per cage project and it's usually on the last tube of a super node where 4 or more tubes are coming together and there's no actual notch to be seen ;) I find it's almost easier to make a dummy piece, wrap a piece of paper or toilet paper roll around it and trace it then transfer it.

  • 44Dwarf

    Aug. 29, 2008 7:38 p.m. 44Dwarf New Reader

    I was real looking at pro-tools my self but then i found a JD2 at a swap meet with two sets of dies 1inch and 1.25 that i needed for the dwarf for $85. I love it no more driving 2 hours to use a hosfelt at a buddys place. Deals are out there at track swap meets best time is just after the season ends and they need rebuild money...

    44

  • nocones

    Aug. 29, 2008 9:49 p.m. nocones New Reader

    Jensenman wrote:

    I currently have a cheapie HF tubing notcher. It's lasted through two cages, but it has its drawbacks such as not being able to make a cut on two axis. So, I have been thinking of a two axis notcher (pricey) or a set of Pipe Masters.

    Fuzzy pic, but you get the idea.

    pipemastertools.com

    The hell it won't do two axis cuts. Just spin the tube around and change your bend angle. That angle you show is just two 45's 180 degrees off of each other on the same tube. I actually have found the HF tube notcher after some adjustment (shiming to center the tube, and welding in a gusset, and using it in a drill press not a hand drill) to do as good as the JD2'd that our FSAE team had. And it was MUCH cheaper. Obviously this was because it was made in china. I've even built some adapters to allow to cut square or rectangular tubing. I do highly recomend you purchase at a minimum Riggid hole saws from HD, or better, as the HF ones aren't great. I've cut all of the 1-5/8 .120 wall tube for my cage with 1 hole saw and it's still has all it's teeth and they are sharp. I guess it's really more of a tube notcher kit, but if your fabricating with a tube notcher, you better have the skills to fix the tube notcher.

  • walterj

    Aug. 29, 2008 11:17 p.m. walterj HalfDork

    OK... so... here is the plan...

    • pro-tools standard bender w/ 1.75 6"r die
    • HF notcher & bottle of cutting oil
    • A fist full of die grinders, loaded with diff bits
    • beer

    That ought to get it started. Thanks.

  • 44Dwarf

    Aug. 30, 2008 7:24 a.m. 44Dwarf New Reader

    you for got the gallon of acetone to clean the oil out of the bird mouth before welding.

    44

  • Rigmaster

    Aug. 30, 2008 8:43 a.m. Rigmaster New Reader

    Where are you located? I have a JD2 bender with dies and a notcher that I probably won't be using this winter.

    I'd be willing to rent/barter it for the winter- but I'd rather not have to box + ship it.

    Mine's bolted to a ~4x4' steel table, works like a champ without bolting to the floor as the table probably weighs ~200 lbs.

    I've got most of the dies from 1"-1-3/4", though one of them seems to be missing.....

    I'm located near Raleigh NC, about 15 minutes from the intersection of I-95 + I-40 in NC.

    Forget about the die grinder bits- you don't need super-precise grinding for fishmouthing, just a good even curve. The pipe notchers work great, and you clean them up + make adjustments with a 4" angle grinder.

    I know you may have already thought of this- but you can save alot of time (and probably some $$$) by just using the Kirk "pre-bent" cage kit made for the E30. Some of my friends just went thru this with their E30 LeMons car. They were pleased with the fit + quality of the bends, but they were caught a bit off guard by the fact that none of the tubes were cut to length or notched. To me this is good, as it gives you the opportunity to make sure the cage fits as tightly as possible in the car. Just a thought......

    LMK.

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 30, 2008 8:48 a.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    nocones wrote:

    Jensenman wrote:

    I currently have a cheapie HF tubing notcher. It's lasted through two cages, but it has its drawbacks such as not being able to make a cut on two axis. So, I have been thinking of a two axis notcher (pricey) or a set of Pipe Masters.

    Fuzzy pic, but you get the idea.

    pipemastertools.com

    The hell it won't do two axis cuts. Just spin the tube around and change your bend angle. That angle you show is just two 45's 180 degrees off of each other on the same tube. I actually have found the HF tube notcher after some adjustment (shiming to center the tube, and welding in a gusset, and using it in a drill press not a hand drill) to do as good as the JD2'd that our FSAE team had. And it was MUCH cheaper. Obviously this was because it was made in china. I've even built some adapters to allow to cut square or rectangular tubing. I do highly recomend you purchase at a minimum Riggid hole saws from HD, or better, as the HF ones aren't great. I've cut all of the 1-5/8 .120 wall tube for my cage with 1 hole saw and it's still has all it's teeth and they are sharp. I guess it's really more of a tube notcher kit, but if your fabricating with a tube notcher, you better have the skills to fix the tube notcher.

    By a 2 axis cut, I mean where one tube joins another at two angles, say for instance at 45 degrees in the lengthwise plane but 10 degrees in the side to side. In the Pipemaster pic, that would be as if the Pipemaster were tilted 10 degrees away from your perspective as well as being at the double 45.

    I looked at that Speedway Motors bender, my reason for passing on it was that the dies are aluminum. It appears they can spread and crack with repeated use.

  • jamscal

    Aug. 30, 2008 9:01 a.m. jamscal HalfDork

    I have a JD2 bender.

    I made my own handle and stand for cheap.

    (If you need a bender, then you should be able to make both items easily )

    They sell both 90 and 180 degree dies now.

    Probably can't go wrong with the Pro-tools, either.

    -James

  • nocones

    Aug. 30, 2008 10:44 a.m. nocones New Reader

    Jensenman wrote:

    By a 2 axis cut, I mean where one tube joins another at two angles, say for instance at 45 degrees in the lengthwise plane but 10 degrees in the side to side. In the Pipemaster pic, that would be as if the Pipemaster were tilted 10 degrees away from your perspective as well as being at the double 45.

    Not trying to start something, and I'm really not trying to be a jerk. However, you can still do that on a HF notcher. If you tubes are intersecting center line to centerline, the only thing you need to control are tube rotation, and cut angle. The "second axis" is centerline offset. The situation you are describing will just require you to treat the intersecting tubes seperatly, cut the first to 45 degrees (this tube would be free to rotate about the vertical tube to any angle either in plane, or out of plane with the existing 90 degree tube). You now have to cut the other tube to a 45 degree angle, at something less than 180 degrees oposite the existing notch in the tube (this angle is the rotation of the tube in the notcher). This is assuming you are creating a true "node" but even if you aren't, it will still cut it, it's just more complicated because the tube axis do not intersect at a single point so you have to account for the offset. But again, if you treat the two tubes you are intersecting as seperate, and cut them out as if you are fitting individually it can be done. I did the attached tube completely on my HF tubing notcher. I only did a VERY small amount of cleanup to account for the weld fillet. I had it easier because I was intersecting the two existing tubes nearly perpendicular, but it wouldn't have matter, I still could have done it.

    The HF notcher can also do offset to ad another dimension of confusion. Just shim the holesaw mount out in relation to the tube the amount you need, or if you need to cut the other side of offset, shim the tube clamp out the amount of offset you need. I could be wrong about all this, and there very likely could be a type of tube intersection I'm missing, and If that's the case, I'd love to see pictures of said intersection. Although I will admit you porobably could have done joints like that easier with a pipemaster.

  • minimac

    Aug. 30, 2008 11:07 a.m. minimac Dork

    The last time we needed one, I borrowed a friends Greenlee bender. Although it was designed for electrical work(conduit) it worked really well on .095 tubing. It wasn't much bigger than my arc welder, was portable, and would accommodate 3/4", 1" 1 1/4" 1 1/2" and 2" .pipe. Just plugged it in, clamped the pipe, and pushed a button. Excellent bends and no kinking.

  • Jensenman

    Aug. 30, 2008 12:41 p.m. Jensenman UltimaDork

    nocones wrote:

    Jensenman wrote:

    By a 2 axis cut, I mean where one tube joins another at two angles, say for instance at 45 degrees in the lengthwise plane but 10 degrees in the side to side. In the Pipemaster pic, that would be as if the Pipemaster were tilted 10 degrees away from your perspective as well as being at the double 45.

    Not trying to start something, and I'm really not trying to be a jerk. However, you can still do that on a HF notcher. If you tubes are intersecting center line to centerline, the only thing you need to control are tube rotation, and cut angle. The "second axis" is centerline offset. The situation you are describing will just require you to treat the intersecting tubes seperatly, cut the first to 45 degrees (this tube would be free to rotate about the vertical tube to any angle either in plane, or out of plane with the existing 90 degree tube). You now have to cut the other tube to a 45 degree angle, at something less than 180 degrees oposite the existing notch in the tube (this angle is the rotation of the tube in the notcher). This is assuming you are creating a true "node" but even if you aren't, it will still cut it, it's just more complicated because the tube axis do not intersect at a single point so you have to account for the offset. But again, if you treat the two tubes you are intersecting as seperate, and cut them out as if you are fitting individually it can be done. I did the attached tube completely on my HF tubing notcher. I only did a VERY small amount of cleanup to account for the weld fillet. I had it easier because I was intersecting the two existing tubes nearly perpendicular, but it wouldn't have matter, I still could have done it.

    The HF notcher can also do offset to ad another dimension of confusion. Just shim the holesaw mount out in relation to the tube the amount you need, or if you need to cut the other side of offset, shim the tube clamp out the amount of offset you need. I could be wrong about all this, and there very likely could be a type of tube intersection I'm missing, and If that's the case, I'd love to see pictures of said intersection. Although I will admit you porobably could have done joints like that easier with a pipemaster.

    Nice work!

    In your bottom photo, the tube coming from the top right down to the bottom 'node'; if you can visualize that that tube had to be tilted 2 ways (both left/right and in/out), then that's the kind of joint I am talking about. To do that, I would have needed to not only shim the tubing clamp away from the hole saw but tilt it in relation to the mount plate. After much cussing and head scratching, I used a piece of PVC pipe to make a pattern (fit and trim, fit and trim) which I then split up the back side and wrapped around my actual roll bar tubing and traced. Then more fit and trim, fit and trim.

    I might be able to post a pic of the joint I am trying to describe. I had to do four of them and it was a remarkable PITA.

    I'd like to see that Greenlee bender. Wonder how it compares to the JD2 etc price wise?

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