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Jan. 21, 2009 10:29 a.m. Salanis UltraDork

So, after getting my dad hooked from his first track day, he's going to get a Miata of his own. We've narrowed it down to two main contenders:

A '96 M edition with 95k that is already prepped and sorted for the track (rollbar, suspension, radiator, FM butterfly brace, wheels), with a hard top, for $6000?

Or a stock '99, apparently unmodified, for $4000?

Two quick questions: how do I tell if the NB has a torsen? It seems to have all the power options, so I'm guess int does. Do the NA and NB use different hard tops? If we get the '99 and decide to put a top on it, will we have to hunt for an NB top?
Jan. 21, 2009 10:41 a.m. joey48442 Dork

I would go with the 99. Mostly because I haven't owned an NB yet. But, you will probably put the cost difference in it in parts to make it track worthy that would bring it up to the price of the NA.

And as far as I know, the hardtopd do interchange.

Joey
Jan. 21, 2009 10:41 a.m. Tom Heath Production Editor

4000 for a 99 seems like a good deal, assuming the car is in good condition. You can buy a lot of goodies for $2k, and the 99 motor has the better cylinder head.

Torsen check- You could jack it up, but it's easier to park with one wheel in grass/dirt and the other on real pavement. Then drop the clutch. If you kill grass and don't leave a mark on the pavement, it's not a Torsen.

Hardtops are a universal fit between first and second gen. The NC model MX-5 is different, but until then they all fit one another. The differences were minor, such as early cars not having a rear defroster.
Jan. 21, 2009 10:48 a.m. tjthom New Reader

Gotta say '99.

Of course, that's cuz mine is...

There's also the weight factor of a 99 being the lightest one built.
Jan. 21, 2009 10:58 a.m. Salanis UltraDork

Oh, and the '99 is green and the '96 is black. If that makes a difference.
Jan. 21, 2009 11:05 a.m. Keith UltraDork

Jacking the car up won't answer your Torsen question. You can check specifications online, call Mazda with the VIN or check the back of your copy of "Find it, Fix it, Trick it" to check specs - or do the burnout test that Tom described.

Not sure I follow about the 99 being the lightest one built. That would be a 1990.

Honestly, I'd drive both cars and make my decision on that basis. The 99 is an excellent platform, but hardtops are really nice to have and easy to sell for $1000. The 95 has suspension and a rollbar, and doing that well to the 99 can eat up most of the price difference between the cars. If the 96 is set up the way your dad wants it and he likes how it drives, go for it. If he wants something different and prefers the "real car" feel of the 99, go for it.
Jan. 21, 2009 11:12 a.m. MCarp22 Reader

Power locks / Cruise / Power antenna / tweeter speakers = PEP = torsen.
Jan. 21, 2009 11:50 a.m. Kramer Reader

I own a '96 M Edition, and I wish I had a '99. I do like the color of the '96, though, but the seats in the '99 are better. The '99 is also more desirable as a track car, especially if it is the Sport Edition (sticker in door jamb will tell).

Call Mazda with the VIN number and ask if a Torsen was included (miata.net has the number). Otherwise, you can't be sure.
Jan. 21, 2009 12:07 p.m. Xceler8x HalfDork

As it stands I'd have to go with the 96. It's a turn key deal there. No pain, just fun.

I don't think the torsen is really that big a deal. For a fun car that won't see any additional power I think the rear end choice is not going to be that big a deal.

I tracked my '93 with a VSLD that had 215k miles on it. Boosted and NA. The only time I knew it wasn't a torsen was when exiting hard turns running 5 psi. Stock power it didn't even factor in. Put some R comp's on the car and that one rear tire will only lose traction under the harshest conditions.
Jan. 21, 2009 2:00 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

My dad is leaning towards the '99. He could get started for a bit less, and likes the idea of having more potential down the road.

There is one for that price locally, whereas the nice '96 is in the bay area.

Are there any major mechanical points to look for on a '99?
Jan. 21, 2009 2:03 p.m. Keith UltraDork

Check the crank end play.
Jan. 21, 2009 2:12 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

Keith wrote:

Check the crank end play.

Yeah, that was the issue I've heard mention of. Can you recommend a particular procedure for checking the crank end play?

The best write-up I read says, "This can easily done by lightly (it doesn't take much force) prying on the crankshaft pulley and seeing if it moves fore and aft."
Jan. 21, 2009 2:17 p.m. Woody Dork

96 will have a little more foot room. The 99 has a wider tunnel to make room for the six speed, which this car probably doesn't have.

I have an '04 hard top on my 96. Only the latches are different, but they can be swapped.

I like the looks of the 96 better, but the 99 is probably a better car. I don't know which I would choose between these two at the given prices.
Jan. 21, 2009 2:29 p.m. Schermerica New Reader

In terms of NA miatas whats better about having a 94 vs. a 90? Like whats the miata R stuff all about.
Jan. 21, 2009 3:16 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

Schermerica wrote:

In terms of NA miatas whats better about having a 94 vs. a 90? Like whats the miata R stuff all about.

There were a lot of changes in '94. Engine displacement went up from 1.6 to 1.8liters. The brakes got a lot bigger. They also switched to a bigger, beefier differential, with the option for a nice Torsen LSD instead of a viscous type.

I believe that chassis stiffening was also improved.
Jan. 21, 2009 3:32 p.m. aircooled Dork

Keith wrote:

...Not sure I follow about the 99 being the lightest one built. That would be a 1990...

I think he means it has the best power to weight ratio, which I believe it does.

Of note, the 99's (I am pretty sure only in California) have two cats (pre and main). If the pre goes it will obviously be a rather expensive pain to change. The Ox sensor is after the pre, so you can't just remove it, but you might be able to move the sensore behind the main cat.
Jan. 21, 2009 3:36 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

aircooled wrote:

Of note, the 99's (I am pretty sure only in California) have two cats (pre and main). If the pre goes it will obviously be a rather expensive pain to change. The Ox sensor is after the pre, so you can't just remove it, but you might be able to move the sensore behind the main cat.

The ad for the '99 we're looking at says it has a new Clutch and Catalytic converter, so I don't think we're going to have that problem. Although, I wouldn't mind deleting one of the two cats.
Jan. 21, 2009 3:57 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

Am I the only one with sense on this board?? Get both!

I kid! (Or do I?)

I personally prefer the older style car, myself. I like pop-up headlights and the smaller-looking stature of the older car.

Putting a car with a torsen differential on a jack won't answer any questions. A torsen diff only works when BOTH tires are on the ground. You don't own it yet, so don't even think about doing a burnout in a car that isn't yours. Get the vin #s, do your carfax stuff, and then check with a Mazda dealer and see which one has the limited slip.
Jan. 21, 2009 3:58 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

Am I the only one with sense on this board?? Get both!

I kid! (Or do I?)

I personally prefer the older style car, myself. I like pop-up headlights and the smaller-looking stature of the older car.

Putting a car with a torsen differential on a jack won't answer any questions. A torsen diff only works when BOTH tires are on the ground. You don't own it yet, so don't even think about doing a burnout in a car that isn't yours. Get the vin #s, do your carfax stuff, and then check with a Mazda dealer and see which one has the limited slip.
Jan. 21, 2009 4:10 p.m. Keith UltraDork

You don't need to do a burnout, merely apply the accelerator with vigor. Nothing you wouldn't do on a normal test driver. Calling Mazda will only tell you if the car was fitted with a Torsen from the factory. I know there are a few out there that "misplaced" theirs over the years...

The NB has a wider transmission tunnel? I didn't know that. The 6-speed fits into an NA tunnel without too much trouble.

I'm getting more phone calls about bad pre-cats in the California 1999-00 models. There are no aftermarket options. Expensive. Those cars are scattered around the US, but the majority are in Cali.

Top latches were changed in 2003, IIRC.

Crank end play is tested by pushing the crank back and forth in the block. A dial indicator will make it more precise to check, but the basic idea is to get a pry bar and move the crank.

Best power/weight might be the MSM.
Jan. 21, 2009 4:17 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

Keith wrote:

Crank end play is tested by pushing the crank back and forth in the block. A dial indicator will make it more precise to check, but the basic idea is to get a pry bar and move the crank.

The car has 130k on the clock. I presume we'll be able to notice crank play by sight/feel at this point?

What is the deal with the bad pre-cats in '99-'00? They're just going bad and costing crazy money to replace? Since this has a new cat, that is likely what happened. If the records show the pre-cat has been replaced, is it safe to say that problem is fixed?
Jan. 21, 2009 4:35 p.m. Woody Dork

Keith wrote:

The NB has a wider transmission tunnel? I didn't know that. The 6-speed fits into an NA tunnel without too much trouble.

Sit in an NA and an NB side by side and you'll find a little less room around the gas pedal. It's subtle, but if you're one of those guys that needs every inch of interior space, you'll notice. That's why I went used instead of new back in '00.
Jan. 21, 2009 4:40 p.m. racerfink New Reader

To have a cage put in a car, and buy a hardtop, you're looking at easily $2000. Then you still have to get the suspension pieces and tires AND install them. Unless he's gonna do a lot of driving on the street with it as well, I'd go with the '94.
Jan. 21, 2009 4:48 p.m. Salanis UltraDork

racerfink wrote:

To have a cage put in a car, and buy a hardtop, you're looking at easily $2000. Then you still have to get the suspension pieces and tires AND install them. Unless he's gonna do a lot of driving on the street with it as well, I'd go with the '94.

The '96 does not have a full cage. Just a bolt-in 4-point bar.

And he will be doing a lot of driving on the street. Sounds like this will probably become his DD, at least for a while.

It's really looking like an NB. He wants to start with the platform with the greater potential.
Jan. 21, 2009 5:06 p.m. Keith UltraDork

Salanis wrote:

The car has 130k on the clock. I presume we'll be able to notice crank play by sight/feel at this point?

If it's the machining problem, you're well past the danger range. But it's worth buying a super-cheap dial gauge from HF and testing it.

Salanis wrote: What is the deal with the bad pre-cats in '99-'00? They're just going bad and costing crazy money to replace? Since this has a new cat, that is likely what happened. If the records show the pre-cat has been replaced, is it safe to say that problem is fixed?

These cats are now 10 years old, and some are starting to fail. The problem is that when they do, they're expensive to replace. We're getting calls from people who either got a check engine light and replaced the rear cat (which doesn't help with the light) or who are in shock from getting a dealer quote. Is it an epidemic, or has it just stuck in my mind because we've had a couple of calls in the past week?

Or you can put on a header and solve the problem :)

There's a stripped NB on the lift right now, I'll compare it to the stripped NA parked across the shop. Interesting. I know about the greater bracing, I wonder if that's what you could get feeling?

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