Which Tire? (240/40R15 Edition)

So, the time has come to get some fresh rubber for my Miata. For those not in the know, it's got a Rotrex-blown BP that makes 245hp, so it's a bit traction limited. Last year I ran 225/45R15 BF Goodrich Rival S 1.5s on my 15x8 Jongbloeds, but that was insufficient. Last fall I grabbed some 15x9 Konig Dial-Ins for cheap when Good-Win had a crazy sale. Now I need new shoes.

Now, the car is both my DD (about 7 out of 12 months, I park it for the NY winters) and a frequent autocross car. I have a 3 mile commute to work, but all my autocrosses are an hour or more drive too. I also frequently roadtrip the car out of state and this year will likely be making a fair amount of drives to visit my girlfriend (90 miles one way). So, no, Hoosiers are not an option. I typically put 9000 miles on the car a season and can make a set of 200tw tires last that long.

Personally, I'm a 7/10 performance driver, so I'm not chasing every last tenth of a second. My car is underprepared for Super Street Mod, so I'm okay with running a 200tw tire. It really needs more spring rate and shock, but an unexpected transmission blowup killed my Fox budget this season, so I'm okay with running a cheaper tire, as tires aren't the weakest link and it'll help me save for better shocks and tires next year. Also, our SCCA region is a little odd. We have 3 sites, all with 60+ second courses with speeds in the 60-70mph range, and we typically get 8-10 runs an event. So, a CNY SCCA season is rough on tires

The pickings are slim in this size, really just 3 contestants, unless I'm missing something. If I am, chime in.

BFG Rival S 1.5: I know these are supposedly the best stuff out there. But honestly, the set I ran last year never blew me away. They never inspired the confidence or seemed to have the front end grip that the 205 RE71Rs I ran the previous year did. I tried playing with alignment settings and tire pressures, and the only time they seemed to "come online" was when I got them nuclear hot (think 8 runs on a 70 second course with less than 5 minutes between runs). Also, I don't like that they are assymetrical tread and you can't flip them on the rim when you start to (inevitably) chew up the inner edges. And they are, by a large margin, the most expensive, at almost $200 a pop.

Hankook R-S4: I know that these are a pretty established tire, although older. But the impression that I've always heard is that they are slow to warm up and function better as a track/HPDE tire than an autocross tire. Also, some say they are a little numb on feedback. That being said, they supposedly wear great, and are not assymetrical, so I can flip them on the rim to stretch them out even farther. And maybe our long, fast courses and frequent runs would be enough to get them up to temp and working properly. They are also $40 a tire cheaper than the BFGs, which is a nice chunk of savings

Maxxis VR-1: The cheapest of the three, they are a good $60 a piece cheaper than the BFGs. They are also a bit of a wildcard, as the reviews seem to be a bit sparse, although I recall them being described as a "fun tire". They are also symmetrical tread, so I can flip them to extend the life. Unfortunately, the 245/40R15 size did not get the new upgraded S2 compound that they are introducing for the VR-1 line (yet)

Trying to save. Underprepped for the class. Etc.

The Maxxis seems like the no brainer here.

In reply to NickD :

I vote BFG's they rock. Alternate being RS-4. 

Maxxis is a true 200tw or higher and it's not as good an autox tire as the other 2. 


Edit: BFG's and RS-4 both need heat to work at their peak. 

You can flip a BFG. it will still work, they're just slightly slower. 

 

z31maniac said:

Trying to save. Underprepped for the class. Etc.

The Maxxis seems like the no brainer here.

+1

What was the tire that had the issues with coming apart in autocross use? It wasn't the Maxxis or the Hankook, right? Or am I thinking of Kumho V720s

NickD said:

What was the tire that had the issues with coming apart in autocross use? It wasn't the Maxxis or the Hankook, right? Or am I thinking of Kumho V720s

I'm pretty sure it was the Kumho V720.  And from the set a friend ran on his (mostly street driven) Miata, they're LOUD too.  

rslifkin said:

NickD said:

What was the tire that had the issues with coming apart in autocross use? It wasn't the Maxxis or the Hankook, right? Or am I thinking of Kumho V720s

I'm pretty sure it was the Kumho V720.  And from the set a friend ran on his (mostly street driven) Miata, they're LOUD too.  

kuhmo had/has delam issues and early NEXEN SUR4's did. but the SUR4's was apparently a pressure issue and it's been updated with the SUR4G now anyway. 

Money aside, neither the maxxis nor the RS-4 will make any more grip than the RivalS on a nice hot day.

If you're having trouble getting a BFG up to temp (aren't we all) then mayyyyyybe give the RS-4's a shot but I don't think they are any better.  The Maxxis definitely isn't any better either.  The problem here is for the weight of the car, you're not going to get enough heat into 245's in an autocross run.  You need RE71 or SUR4G type compound under there IMO.  I know you know the RE71's are only available in a 205....so:

I'd suggest trying the 225 Nexen SUR4G - They measure a bit wide for a 225 and, ~10 mm narrower or not, they will at least light off and WORK on slick asphalt in NY state in April, May, June, July, September and October.  Idunno, buy RivalS for August...?  Buy RivalS and get a codriver?  Buy RivalS and go down the street to do donuts before a run?  (*don't do this)  Buy Hoosiers?  What I can tell you is that we run Nexens, easily the tire that likes cold temps the most, and we were still smothering the car in tire blankets at the FL tour in June last year.  Anyone running RivalS as a single driver was screwed.  And I assume most of your season is like that.

The nexens can be loud on the highway but it's a miata, they will be quieter than the wind noise.  They also need enough camber to wear nicely, 3-3.5 front and 2-2.5 rear on a miata works well.

^Good suggestion, the Nexen SUR4G could also work well for this kind of use.

RedGT said:

Money aside, neither the maxxis nor the RS-4 will make any more grip than the RivalS on a nice hot day.

If you're having trouble getting a BFG up to temp (aren't we all) then mayyyyyybe give the RS-4's a shot but I don't think they are any better.  The Maxxis definitely isn't any better either.  The problem here is for the weight of the car, you're not going to get enough heat into 245's in an autocross run.  You need RE71 or SUR4G type compound under there IMO.  I know you know the RE71's are only available in a 205....so:

I'd suggest trying the 225 Nexen SUR4G - They measure a bit wide for a 225 and, ~10 mm narrower or not, they will at least light off and WORK on slick asphalt in NY state in April, May, June, July, September and October.  Idunno, buy RivalS for August...?  Buy RivalS and get a codriver?  Buy RivalS and go down the street to do donuts before a run?  (*don't do this)  Buy Hoosiers?  What I can tell you is that we run Nexens, easily the tire that likes cold temps the most, and we were still smothering the car in tire blankets at the FL tour in June last year.  Anyone running RivalS as a single driver was screwed.  And I assume most of your season is like that.

The nexens can be loud on the highway but it's a miata, they will be quieter than the wind noise.  They also need enough camber to wear nicely, 3-3.5 front and 2-2.5 rear on a miata works well.

I actually wanted to run the Nexens last year, but they seemed to be on intergalactic backorder when it came time to buy tires, so I went with the BFGs. And, yeah, Finger Lakes Champ Tour was brutal last year. A slip n slide both days. Granted, Seneca Army Depot just has an inherently slick surface too. Oswego County Airport, one of our other sites, is much grippier. 

In the vein of a slightly narrower tire, what about the 225/45R15 Toyo R888R? I know that those are supposed to be pretty sticky as well, and are much better liked than the R888?

Also, for future input, the car is running -3.6 degrees of camber in the front, with a skosh of toe-out, and -2.5 degrees of camber in the rear with 0 toe.

It's a track tire. I'd pass. 

Seriously go cheap. The cost savings over the BFG is more than 10% of your Fox setup!

FEDERAL  595'S? Just a shot. I loved my RS3 V2's but that's not really helpful here. 

What about the Dunlop III? Not available in your size? There’s also the Falken RT6k whatever it’s called. I’ve heard decent things about the 595rsr.

Of the ones you mentioned, I’d go cheaper, so the Maxxis or Hankook.

I really liked my rivals in the 245 width. Didn’t have issues getting them hot either. 

The maxxis is is an okay tire. Fun on the street but gets greasy pretty quick at autocross. They do last forever though.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this possibility, so I'll bring it up: "But Nick, you now have two sets of wheels. Why don't you put Hoosiers on the Konigs and then run regular street tires on the Jongbloeds?"

Great question, here's why: For starters, Hoosiers are pricey. And I know there is a fairly big learning curve to running them. And our long courses with lots of runs would probably chew them up pretty fast. Plus, it's just a lot of hassle. Because it's hour-plus drives to autocrosses, I can't swap the tires on before and driver there on them. I don't have a truck and trailer (nor can I afford one), so I can't just trailer it there on Hoosiers. And I don't have a trailer hitch and tire trailer for the Mazda, to tow them there and swap them at the event. Also, as grid chief and tech inspector, a lot of times I get there and get so busy helping set up the site and doing tech inspection that I don't even have time for a course walk, let alone jack up the car and swap wheels and tires. And then at the end of usually a very long day of running around and cleaning up, I would have to swap everything back.

CyberEric said:

What about the Dunlop III? Not available in your size? There’s also the Falken RT6k whatever it’s called. I’ve heard decent things about the 595rsr.

Of the ones you mentioned, I’d go cheaper, so the Maxxis or Hankook.

The Dunlop ZIII doesn't go wider than a 205 in a 15. The old ZII Star Specs aren't even available in over a 195 anymore. And the Falken RT-615K+ doesn't go above a 205 either.

If the Rivals in 225 took forever to get up to temp, would that mean that 205s would have been a better option?

Knurled. said:

If the Rivals in 225 took forever to get up to temp, would that mean that 205s would have been a better option?

Not really. Because even once the 225s are warm, you can blow the rears off with ease just with throttle application.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffacebook%2Fvideos%2F1052708824893929%2F&width=500&show_text=false&height=281

There was no clutch kick, or e-brake rip, or feint to get this going. Guy literally just matted it, after several laps of the Lime Rock autocross course, so the tires were warmed up at this point 

Is a tire trailer and actual Hoosiers (take offs are OK) an option?  

I got A7 takeoffs from JBT a couple years ago. I did get 2 seasons out of them, but I was never really amazed, and changing tires was a bit of a pain. The set of 4 was about $320-$330 plus M+B. 

In reply to NickD :

Throttle control, maybe?  I know it's hard, but at least you don't have an on/off turbo.

I'm not you and I'm not driving your car, but I wonder if 225s take forever to warm up, if 245s wouldn't be a step in the wrong direction.

Do not get me wrong, 245s looks badass (the Sport Quattro had 15x9 and 245/35R15 in street trim.  Yes 35 section width, in 1984)  but badass looks doesn't correspond to a good time.

My recently purchased ES miata finished first in PAX and eighth overall at Brooksville on a flipped set of Rivals last year.

It won't be posting those results with me driving it, but I'm going to be having fun.

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

Is a tire trailer and actual Hoosiers (take offs are OK) an option?  

Like, I said, it's just a hassle. I typically have to get up at 5:30am and leave the house at 6:15am, drive an hour and get to the site at 7:30-7:45. By the time I unload some stuff from my car, air down the tires and put the numbers on, it's typically time to start tech inspection. And that usually runs right up to the driver's meeting. Then, as grid chief, I usually have to work the first heat, and then get in the car and run the 2nd heat. And frequently I don't even have time to get a course work in. So now, if I have to get there and swap tires, I'm looking at waking up at 5:00am and being on the road by 5:45 (or even earlier if it's an event at Seneca).

In reply to NickD :

I get what you're saying, and half the reason I have been crashing at a local(ish)'s place the night before a rallycross is so I don't have to wake up at 4am so I can be out the door at 5 so I can be there by 8:30-9, but having proper tires, for any specialty, is soooooooo worth it.

Having a tire trailer with a gear box makes life easy.  Tires stay in the trailer, jack and tools stay in the trailer, you just hitch up and go.  At the site, there's no loading/unloading of the car, you unhitch the trailer, swap tires, and you're ready to go.