Why assumption, ignorance to the facts, and the truth don't mix...

Ok so I want to vent a little...

As you may know I recently bought a 1999 M3. The car was purchased as a toy. It will probably get less then 3000 miles a year on it and will spend most of its time sitting in my garage under a car cover. I bought it to take to autocrosses, the occasional track day and to enjoy on the weekends etc. I have a car provided by my work that I drive everyday.

Before I purchased the car I contacted Hagerty's and inquired as to if they would cover the car since it was for limited use and it is kind of "colectible". The original person I spoke to said that that wouldn't be a problem. They asked if the car was modified and I said "yes a little does that make a difference". No not at all was the reply what type of modifications? It is lowered and has an exhaust. "We don't consider that modified, modified would be extensive modifications or a roll cage." was the reply. (This is where an assumption on my part got me in trouble.) Really you cover cars with roll cages? "Yes that way people with race cars are covered when the car is in storage or in transit to the event. We would not cover any damages incurred in an event obviously but the car would be covered on the street." I thought sweet this sounds perfect.

So after purchasing said M3. I called up Hagertys and said lets get that policy we talked about. I fill out the online application to finalize the deal and one of the questions they ask is will the car be used for "autocross, driver training events, or road rally" I assume based on my previous conversation that this is not a problem so I truthfully answer yes. (In the comment box below the check box I wrote occasional local autocross.) A few days go by and I do not hear from Hagerty's. This morning I call to see the progress of my insurance application and the customer service rep on the phone informs me that due to the car being used for racing they will not write my policy. I advise her that this is contracry to what the individual I originally spoke to told me and she tells me sorry the under writer has declined to write the policy. I asked to speak with the underwriter and she told me that it would not be possible for me to speak with them.

I have been autocrossing for over 15 years and I have never once damaged my car in any way shape or form. I don't understand how autocrossing prevents me from being insurable. I have a great driving record (No accidents since I was 16 in 1994, no tickets in the past 6 year) and excellent credit. It is aggravating to me that the original rep advised that they would insure a car with a roll cage but, when it comes time to purchase the policy driving a street car through a parking lot renders the car uninsurable. The ignorance of the underwriter to what autocross entail and its risks is disheartening.

I guess the lesson to take away from this is to lie when getting insurance about the cars use.

I guess what got me so upset is that I have had a great experience with Haggerty's with my Early Bronco, and there type of policy is perfect for my limited use M3 (Stated value etc...). I have even recommended them to several of my friends, in similar situations.

Thats terrible, I'd hate to see what my insurance company does if i told them I occasionally autocross my DD. Its not even paid off yet fer chrissakes!

Its interesting that they only mention autocross, and road rally. Aren't many road rallys were held on public roads, and its "reccomended" that you obey all rules of said road? So how is that different than just a weekend cruise with your car?

Understand your frustration, but the rant is a bit misguided.

The person you spoke to initially isn't an underwriter. They're a call center rep. I'm sure they have training on what types of policies are written, guidelines, etc..., but they're just that...guidelines. The underwriter has the final say. Insurance companies, especially classic car ones, are going to shy away from anything involving "racing". They charge a very low premium, and in return expect to have a very low risk. Most underwriters see a timed/speed/racing event as high risk.

I know you said you have a great driving record, lots of autox experience, etc...but let's just for the sake of argument...let's say the throttle stuck once and you were unable to gain control of the car. The car runs into the corner workers and kills 2 of them. Sure, your Hagerty policy will have an exclusion for racing, but gauranteed several plaintiff attorneys will come after them anyway to collect. They'll either have to pay up, or spend big money in legal costs trying not to pay up. Hence why they stay away.

Classic insurance companies do write race cars. But most of the policies I've seen have been to cover the car ONLY when it's in transit or in storage, as you mentioned above. It may cover the car while putting around the paddock too, but that's it. No street use.

Best bet is to stick with your standard auto policy.

klayfish,

You are right and what you are saying is probably spot on. Again I haven't got a problem with the company, in fact I have been very pleased in all of my dealings with them in the past. I am just aggrevated because my insurance costs for the year just doubled for the car.

It is sad because I would wager driving this car less then 3000 miles a year with an occasional autocross is substantially less risky then driving a normal car 15k a year. The type of policy that they offer is great for a limited use vehicle and it offers a stated value which is very nice if you have a rare, low mileage vehicle.

There are several other companies you could go with. I have nothing bad to say about Hagerty.

They would not insure my 54 Ford Pickup since it is worn and looks like a work truck. They reportedly want the trucks they insure to be in good shape to help insure they will not be used as trucks.

Grundy on the other hand did not have a problem insuring it. They also have my 84 RX-7. Rates were a little better than the Hagerty quote as well. No claim experience so I can't comment there.

Not covering a vehicle used for racing is a totally understandable stance. Auto-x is a timed event and plenty of crashes have occurred during them. I've been to several auto-x where people have made a mistake and totaled their cars.

BTW, if you tell your "normal" insurance carrier that you plan to auto-x the car they won't cover you either.

I understand that but given what the original customer service rep told me I "assumed" it would be fine. Again I should not have assumed...

I had a friend with one of the usual suspect companies(Geico, Progressive, I can't remember which one) and was doing HPDEs. He basically did this @1:35 at CMP but in his C5 Z06 at a lower speed. He thought he was just gonna have to eat the cost($10K) himself. He called the insurance company to tell them what happened and they sent an adjuster out to the track(at a later date) and did an investigation of some sorts. He ended up getting the work covered by the insurance company because it wasn't a timed event and was considered driving education. He did learn a lesson about using his DD as a track car and now has an Integra as the new, cheaper, track toy. I was working the event when he did this and after the wreck he kept driving. It was mostly cosmetic.

I talked to Hagerty about my Miata and they told me they won't insure it because it wasn't worth enough, even though their site mentions nothing about a minimum value. Snobs

Going by the title, I thought this was going to be a thread on politics.

Klayfish wrote: I know you said you have a great driving record, lots of autox experience, etc...but let's just for the sake of argument...let's say the throttle stuck once and you were unable to gain control of the car. The car runs into the corner workers and kills 2 of them.

Or you could just, you know, push in the clutch and press lightly on the brakes.

I see what you mean without having to make you come up with another hypothetical scenario... But I'd be interested to hear how many corner workers were killed at autocross events in the past decade.

You've just learned the difference between a salesman and an underwriter.

Streetwiseguy.... Nice!

It was $380 a year for a stated value of 14k. I havent talked to State Farm yet but I am going to guess it will be around 65 a month or so based on the previous cars I have insured with them.

Its funny my 1976 bronco with a 10k stated value is only 200 a year.

safeco. $400 for 6 cars. yearly. with a E36 M3 driving record. try them out 1st. hagerty can LMB.

-J0N

pimpm3 wrote: I understand that but given what the original customer service rep told me I "assumed" it would be fine. Again I should not have assumed...

How do you take this to mean it's fine?

Hagerty rep said: ...people with race cars are covered when the car is in storage or in transit to the event. We would not cover any damages incurred in an event...

I take autocrossing as an event

""""

Lots of insurance companies use the term 'speed contest' as part of their exclusions and that means W2W or timed. HPDE, since it is not timed, is normally covered. BTW, that 'speed contest' exclusion is in life insurance policies, too. You should have seen the rep try to wrap his head around the concept of 'motorcycle enduros'.

Real minidriver

I know that damage incurred during an autocross would not be covered. I would not expect it to be. They won't insure the car the rest of the time which is the problem. I assumed that a car used for racing that is insured while it is on the street, in storage, transit etc.. meant that my M3 would be insured while not racing. Why would you have a roll cage in a vehicle if it is not used for racing?

pimpm3 wrote: Streetwiseguy.... Nice! It was $380 a year for a stated value of 14k. I havent talked to State Farm yet but I am going to guess it will be around 65 a month or so based on the previous cars I have insured with them. Its funny my 1976 bronco with a 10k stated value is only 200 a year.

ok.. I am jealous. I pay that a month here in NJ.. and I have had a clean record for the past 5 years

mad_machine wrote: ok.. I am jealous. I pay that a month here in NJ.. and I have had a clean record for the past 5 years

My g/f pays about $200/yr in NJ for her two classics in NJ. Classic insurance is a whole different ball game. I pay about the same for my pair in PA. However, my 'normal' insurance on the TDi and CDT is a little less than that per month.

J308 wrote:

Klayfish wrote: I know you said you have a great driving record, lots of autox experience, etc...but let's just for the sake of argument...let's say the throttle stuck once and you were unable to gain control of the car. The car runs into the corner workers and kills 2 of them.

Or you could just, you know, push in the clutch and press lightly on the brakes. I see what you mean without having to make you come up with another hypothetical scenario... But I'd be interested to hear how many corner workers were killed at autocross events in the past decade.

You're exactly right, obviously my scenario was to the extreme. But I was just illustrating a point. Never seen a corner worker get killed....just a E36 M3 load of cones...

Rather than get into the whole 'only insure it for a given activity' thing which the insurance companies know is ripe for abuse they just don't write insurance on cars used for any sort of speed event, that way they avoid a pissin' contest later on. No I don't like it either but there it is.

In an SCCA or NASA sanctioned autocross/time trial/hillclimb event, there is an insurance policy to cover damage and injury so if there is an on course incident that takes over. IIRC that covers only the workers and the course area but does not cover the vehicles. I think PCA does the same but I could be wrong.

To the OP: there are companies which specialize in cars like yours and cover them only when parked at home or being transported, IIRC there's one which advertises in Classic Motorsports. There were also some which advertised in the drag race magazines like National Dragster.

Tricky situation. Generally it's well-understood that you NEVER EVER let the insurer know that the car is used in any kind of motorsports, anything from autocross to stage rallying, and try to keep mods under wraps as much as you can, but after the rep specifically told you on the phone that they were motorsports-friendly I might have done the same thing...and your honesty came back to bite you in the ass

I have had a bad experience with Hagerty. I tried to insure my Shelby Dakota #233, but was told it was just a truck with stickers and therefore not eligible. A hot-rodded 1970s Malibu or even a modified (paint, engine, suspension) 1970s Chevy pickup would have qualified (according to the rep), but not my Dakota "with stickers." Yes, I did provide documemnattion and photographs, inciuiding the Shelby tab under the hood and the numbered plaque on the dash. American Collectors had no problem insuring it for an agreed value of $13,000. No racing though.

pimpm3 wrote: Streetwiseguy.... Nice! It was $380 a year for a stated value of 14k. I havent talked to State Farm yet but I am going to guess it will be around 65 a month or so based on the previous cars I have insured with them. Its funny my 1976 bronco with a 10k stated value is only 200 a year.

If you do ANY sort of towing with the Bronco do not tell Hagerty. When I was getting insurance for my '77 EB I mentioned that I drove it very little, mostly towing a catamaran to the beach...Oops, we're sorry, you cannot tow with our policies. Duoh!

For what it's worth, I always took the license plate off of my car if I was autocrossing a street-driven car. I wouldn't put it past State Farm to send someone down to the event and "spy" and end up canceling my insurance. Insurance companies are the lowest form of scum on earth, and they will do literally anything to get out of doing what you pay them for.