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Daylan C
Daylan C SuperDork
12/27/17 7:09 p.m.

Honestly I'm sitting here laughing as guy makes dumb jokes about having to adjust his tripod with assembly lube on his hands while putting a cam in an L33 that's bound for a Miata. Just so happens its another drift build. 

Dirtydog
Dirtydog Reader
12/27/17 7:12 p.m.

Don't like drifting.   Reminds me too much of when I rolled my car 3 1/2 times.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/27/17 7:15 p.m.

Yet another illustration: would you rather watch a mathematician do his thing, or an exotic dancer do her/his thing?

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
12/27/17 8:04 p.m.
Trackmouse said:

Yet another illustration: would you rather watch a mathematician do his thing, or an exotic dancer do her/his thing?

I think for this comparison to be valid, the mathematician has to be hot and both of them are working on cars. I guess I'm biased because I love autocross and I'm a YouTuber. I see so many videos that are kinda lame then am shocked to see them have hundreds of thousands or millions of views and these guys are buying and building cars with YouTube money. I have the skills, space and time to build cars all day but I am building an MGB for autocross and very few young people are into either of those things. My next car should be a 3 rotor FD RX-7 or Datsun 510 for SSM or SM but I'll pretend I'm building it for drifting so I can get some subscribers.

Crackers
Crackers Dork
12/27/17 8:20 p.m.

Why does Top Gear have to drift Every. Single. Car. They. Test. Drive.? 

Because it sells. 

IMO drift videos give non-enthusiasts a peek behind the curtain. So a lot of their numbers are non-car types, where as autocross stuff is mostly other autocrossers. 

Even if the cars are 90% identical they're going to be drawn to what gets them excited vs something visually. 

Then there's channels like that group of kids doing stupid E36 M3 like welding steering knuckles with a 90amp HF flux core welder. 

They draw people just looking for a train wreck. 

Crackers
Crackers Dork
12/27/17 8:23 p.m.

I mean, look at how often we see people *on this forum* asking for burnout videos. 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
12/27/17 9:56 p.m.

Simple sex sells and auto cross is not sexy. Now drifting has young men that get excited by little more than a light breeze and they have scantily clad drift bunnie girls all over the place.  In autocross it is a very good chance that it will be a lady that is whooping up on the rest of the field. 

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
12/27/17 9:57 p.m.

If I was 17 again now I know what sport I would be getting in to. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
12/27/17 9:59 p.m.

For the record, I find both of those videos posted earlier entertaining.  I never really go out of my way to search for rallyx or autox videos though.

IMO, the Rallyx video posted earlier is no more interesting than the Autox video, although they are different types of videos.  Watching rallyx is like watching autox, except you get dirtier, sometimes you can't breathe, and a lot of the time you can't see what's going on.  That was a well put together, fun video.

I think one key difference there though, is its a lot easier to replicate that rallyx video as stock cars are much closer to full prep cars than in the autox world, where stock cars are incredibly slow and boring in comparison to the high power, high traction stuff often featured in videos from nationals.

 

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
12/27/17 10:07 p.m.

Drifting is a sport powered by hormones and energy drinks. It is a brilliantly marketed sport. The drivers are like gladiators. The respect an reverence they achieve is just fantastic. Absolutely brilliant marketing. The FF crowd combined with a broader acceptance by many car people is propelling the sport of drifting and it is no where close to hitting its popularity ceiling. I wish it was around when I was a kid.

because of this if you put the word drift in the title of your u tube video you will get lots of traffic. The kids are eating this stuff up. They can not get enough of it.  

dropstep
dropstep SuperDork
12/27/17 10:11 p.m.

Burnouts, its what makes alot of younger folks watch drag race videos, drift videos and footage of the australian nationals. No one wants to watch people who build cars to just stick too the ground. Once your interested in the motorsport of choice you start watching youtube videos of builds in your free time because thats what you want to do someday.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/27/17 10:30 p.m.

In reply to Kreb :

They're both great. I give it a tie. Rap sucks though. 

Autocross is boring to watch. No matter how fast they are, it looks the same. No drama in it either. 

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
12/27/17 10:41 p.m.

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
12/27/17 10:43 p.m.

Auto crossing is three timed laps to complete the fastest time in comparison to cars of more or less equal perpetration that have been grouped together.  Driving at an event against cars in your class that have Penske shocks does mean I will be competing for second, but I really like the fact that my wife of 32 years is at the event with me and our son driving his FJ kart.

I would be that guy in the dad shorts, supportive shoes, white button down long sieved shirts and broad rimed hat.  No, drifting is for a younger group. But how do you score the style points?

 

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/27/17 10:44 p.m.

Also, go to a legit drift event. The cars there are seriously built with some awesome engineering and attention to detail. A lot if people associate it with the FF and InitialD crowd but there are real drivers out there, real cars, and real enthusiast. Just like GRM. 

I suggest every enthusiast go to a formula-D event and try and get a ride along if you can.  Even if it ain't your crowd. Lots of fun!

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
12/27/17 10:53 p.m.
loosecannon said:

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned this notion of someone swapping tires on a drift car and getting a bazillion views. The people watching that aren't interested in changing tires. They're watching it because drifting is a thing they're interested in. The video is associated with a thing they think is cool. So all these comments about people getting wound up about a no-actual-drifting "drift" video, but not about a no-actual-autocross "autocross" video that have the same wrench-spinning content are still, I think, salient. Most of the viewers probably aren't even interested in changing their own wheels, but they'll watch someone involved in drifting change their wheels, or host a random episode of a cooking show. The cachet is associated with the pursuit, and the content is... not irrelevant, but I think this is closely related to why similar content gets wildly varying views. Of course, along with interest comes YouTube's algorithms for what it shows someone who's just watched another video. How do you get your autocross wrenching video in the Next Up panel after someone watches a drift-wrench video?

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/27/17 10:53 p.m.
loosecannon said:

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

How many autocrossers make build videos vs drifters? 

What are the demographics of the viewers? 

What are the demographics of the people making the video? 

I'm willing to bet the autocross guys are middle age men in denim shorts talking about a part that'll shave .04 seconds around a parking lot. Hell I bet most of the folks you meet at an autocross don't have a YouTube account or care to have one. 

I'm sure there are more people who autocross in this country than there are people who drift. But, autocross will never do well in media. It's boring. Like chess. I loves playing but hate watching it! 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
12/27/17 10:56 p.m.
loosecannon said:

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

North American-style autocrossing is fairly unique in the world of motorsport. Yeah there's "autoslalom" competitions in Europe that are similar in scope, but the sport as we know it here is fairly unique in its application and its accessibility. Still, even the word "autocross" doesn not have a universal meaning. For most of the rest of the world, "autocross" is something that happens on dirt.

"Drift" on the other hand is universal. And unlike the, what, 60+ classes of American autocross, drifting basically has one class. 

In essence, the things that make autocrossing appealing to its participants (class variety, lack of danger, ease of entry with a stock car) are exactly the things that limit its broad appeal. For more evidence, look at the GoodGuys AutoCross series. Tiny, rinky-dink little 1st gear courses that are miserable to drive, but the cars are loud, fast, there's like two classes, and there's THOUSANDS of spectators at every event. 

As for the Youtube disparity, man, I wish I knew. Were putting solid content on YouTube and we routinely get outviewed by vertical phone video of some guy farting into his hand and smelling it. YouTube is a weird netherworld where nothing makes sense.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/27/17 11:04 p.m.

Kid sees a badass YouTube video of the uploader drifting. The kid subscribes to said uploader. Then watches the videos posted, wether its a drift video or a How to Install a Monster Energy Intake Pipe. Its as simple as that.

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
12/27/17 11:13 p.m.

My theory on why I have 200 subscribers and Evan Shanks (as an example) has 284,000 subscribers is that my car is the wrong brand (British, not Japanese or German) and people into autocross tend to actually autocross, not live vicariously through other peoples YouTube channel.  The demographics of YouTube subscribers to automotive build pages are probably on the young side and young people are not into British sports cars from the 60's. Old guys like small British sports cars from the 60's and they aren't your typical YouTube subscriber. I have 15 young car guys who work for me and they all are into YouTube and none of them care much for British cars or autocross. They are all about JDM and drifting. It still surprises me seeing the popularity of some of these channels. I watch them and think "Wow, 1.8 Million people want to listen to this guy taking a Miata for a test drive? Really?"

Tom1200
Tom1200 HalfDork
12/28/17 12:20 a.m.

Back to the stripper vs mathmetician; if your into Candy Van Sugerteets your not going to watch Albert Von Tesla calculate the escape velocity of a Uranium 239 atom from the Galaxy Andromita. You'll sit and watch Candy eat breakfast, braid her hair or try out new lipstick. Albert could stick a firehouse up his nose till his cranium swelled and popped like one of those carnival balloon games and you still won't watch because Candy is just so more interesting to watch.

From the racing standpoint do you want to see videos of technical enduro sections or Hillier make unbelievable saves at Balle-scary during the TT. 

The only time I watch autocross videos is to see what other competitors are doing or get some information about set up on other Formula 500s. Even if I were to actually put videos up of me changing the final drive who'd want to see pictures of Dullard Von Simpletien.

 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver PowerDork
12/28/17 1:38 a.m.

You get more people lined up watching burnouts leaving cars and coffee than you do watching autocross...

 

I think autocross really doesnt have the social recognition that drifting/etc does.  Too much precision, not enough gross over-application of power, or smashing into walls.  Then theres the tandem drifting stuff that auto-x cant touch with a 10 ft pole for excitement. SMOKE!  CRASH! CONSTANT REVLIMITER BANGING!  its hard to compete with the attention grab. (this leads to name recognition, leads to people looking for things to subscribe to)   Plus, for every bitchin mod car you have 10 stock looking hatchbacks, miatas, or FRS/BRZ diluting down the visual excitement.  I think the only way you could make street class fun from a spectator perspective is if it was wheel to wheel with crashing (yuh-NO).

 

I have NEVER been to an autocross event that drew what I could call a large spectator crowd. Its usually just the people running and their families. You can even judge a bit about how a program works by how much the family comes to watch.

 

Then again, how many people show up to just spectate at SCCA regional wheel to wheel stuff at the track that isnt just family of the people racing?

 

Atmosphere at events has a lot to do with it. The group I organize with makes some efforts to at least make it a pleasant parking lot to stand around with music, grilled sausages, smoked porkchops and ribs, encouraged ride-alongs (with signed wavier), etc.  At least then we can somewhat compete with the fun of standing around a cars and coffee. We also focus on a more inclusive index for scoring and keep SCCA scoring as an optional background thing. Try to focus more on fun competition than the serious competition. We get some flack about it from the more serious guys, but we are actually seen as (if not the most) one of the most newb friendly places to run because its less serious. More of a go hang out with friends and run your car than "I am here on an outright mission for a plastic cup, do my runs and done" mentality.  We sell out most events, but spectator draw, not really, not to a noticeable extent. 

(thought bubble, wonder if there would be something to segregating out parking section for the more exciting modified cars that are running and encouraging a carshow atmosphere of that for them to be looked at between runs?)

 

Been a few ideas of trying to do a cars and coffee show at the same time along with the event, but most, if not all, of our venues couldnt support the realestate demand. We had one event where there was a facebook group car show that decided they were having a show on the same lot at the same time we were. (They didnt bother with talking to lot owners, event insurance, etc. They just decide "I'M showing up and holding an event on someone's unused property"!). We had a few problems from it and it wasnt just space related. The carshow people were doing burnouts, speeding around the venue, and all kinds of mayhem. (not to mention making people nervous that the stuff they took out of their cars would walk off) We felt the need to reach out to the lot owners about the situation and cant remember if we actively reached out to the local police to be sure they understood that the hooligans were separate and distinct from us as we were scared of the BS loosing us the lot. 

 

Another note is that the typical car-show person can be like oil and water to interacting with racers. 

Havent gone to many, for context, how much spectator draw do amateur drifting events have?

 

 

I know it doesnt relate directly to what people subscribe to on youtube, but I think its relevant context to what is faced with the gap.    

 

 

NickD
NickD UltraDork
12/28/17 5:33 a.m.
dean1484 said:

Drifting is a sport powered by hormones and energy drinks. It is a brilliantly marketed sport

A bit off-topic but an interesting factoid I learned this year: NOS is legally the only energy drink allowed to be sold at Formula D events. That's despite the fact that both Monster and Rockstar have big presences in the sport. Learned that from Jeff Jones' team, when I asked if they had any of the energy drink on hand that he is sponsored by (Doc X Energy) and they told me that they couldn't legally sell it at the event, although they could *give* me a can if I bought a T-shirt. Apparently, when Formula D was trying to get off the ground, NOS gave them a huge sponsorship in exchange for exclusive rights. They may have also have hinted at favorable calls for the NOS-sponsored driver were included in the deal, and I certainly question it as well, after seeing some of the calls Chris Forsberg gets.

TheRX7Project
TheRX7Project Reader
12/28/17 7:39 a.m.
759NRNG said:

Drifting makes no sense to me.....runnin' the cones I have yet to witness in person. Thinking out loud , my biggest hang up is course recognition, can't grasp the 'coneology' ....if there where overhead 'shots' might boost viewership???  

Slightly off topic, but that was a large hangup for me also and a large part of why I didn't get into Autocross sooner. Once you've done it a time or two, it becomes like second nature mostly. Walking the course as much as you can will help you remember the "tricky" parts, and most of the courses I've run only have 1-2 spots where someone really could get lost.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/28/17 7:53 a.m.
loosecannon said:

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

As someone who has been following your build-thread for more years than I can keep track of, and has NOT made the jump to your videos, I will see if I can answer as it pertains to your situation. 

You are too intellectual in what is a brute force and ignorance medium.

GRM is a bubble of like minded people who live and breathe mechanical systems. In the real world where people have the attention span of a gnat, and the mechanical comprehension of Betty Crocker, you are teaching how to design and build a Swiss watch, while the drift builds are the equivalent of Gallager and his sledge hammer act.

I prefer your written post to your videos because I can process what you teach at my own pace. I am often learning something  from them and I am a slow processor of information.  The videos are entertaining, but kinda like a diet of whip-cream in that they can't go into the detail and hence don't really feed the need for me even though you do try. And yet, for the larger audience, because they are not pure entertainment, you have the opposite effect; too intellectual for their whip cream appetites. 

You are also a one man show...If you look at the Videos that do feed the technical knowledge junkies like me, they tend to have two people who act as foils for each other. Project Binky and the Mighty Car Mods would be two good examples. The Motortrend shows  (Roadkill) are also examples of this, but are like skim milk when it comes to useful mechanical lessons; instead they rely on big production values, so yeah, I watch their watermelon smashing.

As Shania Twain once said "… Okay, so you've got a car...That don't impress me much " Go hire a hot-babe who has a chance to win the championship, film each run from the vantage point of a few drones  ( that alone would be a cool thing for the slalom fans)  and chronicle the trials and tribulations of the hunt for the championship and you will have a $HOW .

 

The fact that I have been following for as long as I have should tell you that you have a good product, but as someone who works in product development, I know that is not the main ingredient for market success. As an engineer, I used to think that innovation started with the engineering department, now I know that real innovation comes from the marketing department and engineering only enables.

 

 

Standard disclaimer: Do not mean to offend as I am a big fan. Apologies if anything comes out that way.

 

Pete

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