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ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
12/28/17 7:56 a.m.
NOHOME said:

I prefer your written post to your videos because I can process what you teach at my own pace.

Related note:  This is why I prefer build threads/blogs/etc. to videos.  Tech concepts are communicated much better though text & photos at the amateur level.

turtl631
turtl631 Reader
12/28/17 9:54 a.m.

Drifting is a whole lifestyle for people.  They sell their s13 and say "I'm getting out of the game".  It's a youth lifestyle/social media thing and autocross isn't.  

 

I do wonder why the 240sx isn't more popular for track autocross etc.  Cheap, easy to work on, tons of parts available.  If the drift kids can do it anyone can!  

Spoolpigeon
Spoolpigeon PowerDork
12/28/17 10:05 a.m.

Compromise: Do both

Jumper K Balls
Jumper K Balls PowerDork
12/28/17 10:09 a.m.
turtl631 said:

I do wonder why the 240sx isn't more popular for track autocross etc.  Cheap, easy to work on, tons of parts available.  If the drift kids can do it anyone can!  

From what I understand it is a "polar moment of inertia" thing. IE: The weight is distributed towards the front and rear of the car instead of towards the middle so rapid transitions in direction are not its strong suit but maintaining those directions, once they are made, is. What makes it so stable sliding around long corners inhibits its ability to make the quick transitions needed in autocross.

I'm not saying this is a huge deal or can't be overcome but they simply were not competitive for a very long time

 

and, yes I know a 240sx won nationals once. 

NickD
NickD UltraDork
12/28/17 10:16 a.m.
turtl631 said:

I do wonder why the 240sx isn't more popular for track autocross etc.  Cheap, easy to work on, tons of parts available.  If the drift kids can do it anyone can!  

Cheap? Not anymore. Every one I find is a single cam, automatic car, blown head gasket, gutted interior, every body panel caved in, electrical issues out the wazoo and a welded diff, and the owner wants $4500 because of "drift tax". 

Here's my other big gripe of the 240SX: I drove one with a stock KA24E and some crazy chassis bits under it and was pretty underwhelmed. Later mentioned it while some 240SX cognescenti were telling me that the 240SX was a great car. They asked me what engine and I replied stock KA (with a header, I think) and they said "Oh, well you have to put an SR/LS/RB/JZ in it" Okay, if you have to swap major driveline parts before it can be enjoyable, then it is not a great car. Sorry.

nocones
nocones UltraDork
12/28/17 10:27 a.m.

I think it has a lot to do with relatability.

Look at cars like yours or mine, or big time fabrication builds and the skills and tools required are just so far beyond the average person.

Probably the most popular heavy build video series is project Binky with ~750k views per video but they only release 3-4 videos a year.  They also have very entertaining production and put much editing time in which helps make their videos marketable despite the unrelatability of the skills.

Mighty Car Mods puts together in essence bolt on builds and get 1M views every week.  The skills and techniques are very relatable most "enthusiast" which is why they are marketable.  

Roadkill does crazy things with cars that are entertaining and they even actually promote a type of autox in their series but what they do is relatable.  It's two guys thrashing on relatively minor fab and focuses on the entertainment.

Even B is for Build which puts out garbage tech pulls in 250k subscribers likely due to the fact that anyone can seem themselves doing those mods.  It's relatable.

Big time autox builds are not relatable on 3 fronts.  Not many can have a car dedicated to 6 min of use per weekend, not many have the skills to relate to the fabrication, and the end product isn't that entertaining to watch do its thing.  I'm just not sure autox builds will ever drive big entertaining.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/28/17 10:44 a.m.

Perfect example of why slaloms don't pull spectators:

 

Anyone from the sidelines see a "Race Course" that is being followed? I sure as E36 M3 don't.  The only place the "Race Course" exist is in the drivers head since he walked it until he memorized it. Ironically, the challenge of memorizing and following the invisible track is kinda the whole point of the game.

Now, If we could please paint a line along the path and follow the run from the air where there would be some perspective, it would be orders of magnitude more interesting to watch. I want to relate to whatever is going on and for that I need to see how you execute the run. Not possible from the sidelines since there is no race course in the spectators head.

 

Pete

NickD
NickD UltraDork
12/28/17 10:56 a.m.

Hell, I ran an 8-page build thread on here that was about me building my street/autocross Miata, all basic-ish, low-budget tech done by myself. Eight pages in and the only person that occasionally posted in there was Swank Force One. After 8 pages of talking to myself (and Photobucket tossing my photos in the trash repeatedly) I stopped posting updates.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/28/17 11:16 a.m.
turtl631 said:

If the drift kids can do it anyone can!  

Love how some enthusiast treat others as if they have no knowledge or skill because they aren't into the same thing. Condescending to think of the drift crowd as unknowledgeable kids. 

The level of skill and execution to successfully drift isn't childsplay. Why treat their enthusiast like that?

It's funny because rarely do you see drifters bash other forms of racing enthusiast in the same way. Same with the stance crowd, they get bashed for doing what they love. Some of the best builds you'll ever see come from drift cars. 

I'm glad I have an open mind and enjoy all forms of motorsports. Even frequent different type of enthusiast forums. 

I think y'all should get out there and see what the fuss is about rather than call them kids with no ability. 

Off my soapbox now. 

thestig99
thestig99 Dork
12/28/17 11:44 a.m.

Generally speaking, the visual interest of the sport reflects on the cars and builds as well.

Autox builds tend to be very restrained due to the precise nature of the sport and classing. With drifting, at least at the grassroots level, things are a bit more open so you tend to see cars that are a little more on the wild side. Crazy engine swaps, big power, in your face aesthetics, and more variety. I'm a lot more likely to watch a video of someone bolting a bash bar onto brightly colored, widebody, slammed, turbo V8 240SX/RX7/E36/350Z/whatever than I am to watch a video full of technical information of someone bolting $10k of suspension/wheels/tires under a stock Miata. I'd rather have the Miata in my driveway, but the drift car is more interesting. Hence my own minimalist Miata "build" whose threads nobody has given a E36 M3 about for 6 years laugh

There are nutty autox builds and dull drift ones for sure but, most of the time, a drift build is more likely to capture the imagination. Also the same channel that has that bash bar video is quite likely to have a video full of smoke and noise up next, which keeps the interest. 

Another part is crowd participation. Being a spectator at a drift event feels infinitely more involving than an autox. When spectators feel closer and more involved with the drivers and the cars, they're more likely to want to know more about them and seek that out on social media and youtube.  

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UberDork
12/28/17 11:50 a.m.

There’s a reason this is my wallpaper. I don’t know what it is but there must be a reason!

pushrod36
pushrod36 Reader
12/28/17 12:08 p.m.

My wife asks me why I watch "the same thing over and over" on YouTube. I like to watch things that blow my mind or that I aspire to. For me, building an autox car or driving in an autox is neither. Drifting can be... Especially if it's an 8 car train or a 360* spin. 

Not sure if it applies to the op's build or not, but autocross typically doesn't involve an exotic drivetrain  people like big engines, and being in a car that still looks like a car makes it relatable (for me)  

Also, pretty girls. There is a channel I forget the name of where a good looking girl shows how to do simple car maintenance and installs. I think they used a plain Mazda 3 for a long time (boring!). Anyway, she hepd my attention in a way that no dude ever would. 

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/28/17 12:22 p.m.
thestig99 said:

Another part is crowd participation. Being a spectator at a drift event feels infinitely more involving than an autox. When spectators feel closer and more involved with the drivers and the cars, they're more likely to want to know more about them and seek that out on social media and youtube.  

Yup...hard to argue with the audience participation of the drift game. There is an intimacy that is not seen outside of European Stage Rallies.

NickD
NickD UltraDork
12/28/17 12:58 p.m.

Until Rocket Bunny-kitted 4-rotor RX-7s driven by mad Kiwis....

Or 3-wheeling NASCAR-engine Mustangs....

 

or wall-scraping, fireball-shooting 900hp 2JZ FR-S in vintage TRD livery...

start showing up at autocrosses, drifting will typically win for car selection as well.

STM317
STM317 Dork
12/28/17 1:07 p.m.
NOHOME said:

Perfect example of why slaloms don't pull spectators:

 

Anyone from the sidelines see a "Race Course" that is being followed? I sure as E36 M3 don't.  The only place the "Race Course" exist is in the drivers head since he walked it until he memorized it. Ironically, the challenge of memorizing and following the invisible track is kinda the whole point of the game.

Now, If we could please paint a line along the path and follow the run from the air where there would be some perspective, it would be orders of magnitude more interesting to watch. I want to relate to whatever is going on and for that I need to see how you execute the run. Not possible from the sidelines since there is no race course in the spectators head.

 

Pete

This is a big deal for many. Watching a single car go around an invisible track from a terrible vantage point several hundred yards away won't hold anybody's interest. In my experience,mGoodguys does the best job at keeping autocross interesting for spectators, but traditional autocrossers would likely frown on the setup.

 If you go to a Goodguys autocross event, the track is marked clearly by paint on the ground, and a wall of cones on each side. They have had small bleachers setup at every one that I've been to which helps people see more. The courses are setup in an area the size of a football field vs an airstrip or massive parking lot so everything that happens is easily visible from one spot. And the cars are usually interesting and lust worthy things for the average car person not a Mini Cooper with coilovers that nobody can see.

Lof8
Lof8 Dork
12/28/17 1:18 p.m.

There is very little that is entertaining about autocrossing except for that 1 minute where YOU are behind the wheel. I wouldn’t choose to go to one to spectate. 

* the $2k Challenge is a bit of an exception due to the unique hardware present

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
12/28/17 1:25 p.m.

There is a lot to be said for being entertaining and relating to an audience when it comes to getting a lot of youtube views. I see a lot of the car enthusiast vlogs that start off more on the side of car reviews or builds and once they get a solid following just turn into following around some random guy on the internet everyday talking about his daily activities and "what is coming soon or next."

STM317
STM317 Dork
12/28/17 1:28 p.m.
loosecannon said:

This discussion is off the rails, probably because new posters are not reading the original post, only the title. It's not specifically about why drifting is more popular than autocross, but why a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for drifting gets 2 million views and a YouTube page where a guy bolts performance parts to a car meant for autocross gets 200 views. Similar cars, similar mods, turbocharged 4 cylinder engines, lots of boost, spinning tires, dyno runs and aggressive aero mods but they couldn't be farther apart in views.

Demographics play a large part here. Drifting draws young guys with flat brimmed hats, who drink energy drinks and are active on social media. This group watches a lot of YouTube, and they share vids they like with friends via social media so the impact spreads more quickly.

Autocross tends to draw a more mature crowd that is often pretty nerdy. These people are far less likely to watch a lot of YouTube, and they don't share every video they come across with everybody on their social media. Middle aged, Cargo shorts guy isn't as cool to watch as tatted up drifter bro. There's a stigma at play. 

Also, titling videos probably has something to do with it as well. I'd be very interested in seeing how views are affected if you titled a video " EMod MG dyno day" vs titling the same video "Awesome wide body V12 MG shoots flames on dyno" or something. Your vid will be grouped with similar vids accordingly.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
12/28/17 1:31 p.m.

In reply to Lof8 :

The Challenge provides excitement from the possibility of Doom and Unmitigated failure.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/28/17 2:23 p.m.

We all like a good splosion.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/28/17 2:47 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Couldn’t agree more. Let’s see anyone here pull off a tandem without using the e brake and without an LS motor to save your ass. 

The true roots of drifting are incredible and to see it truly done the right way is nothing short of classical music, ballet, and Theatre. 

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/28/17 3:00 p.m.

We once again drift off the rails. I think what Mr Cannon is really pondering is how to boost his YouTube subscriptions to the point where they might contribute to the cost of the game. I don't think he needs more people to attend or care about autocross.

This means that you are in the entertainment marketing business. Dude by the name of Thoreau once wrote that  'The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.  Ergo,  what the mass of men will seek- out is to live vicariously through the presenters life. They want a mortal hero, They want action. They always want a hot babe, They want to see success against the odds. They need to believe that "if only"  ..then THEY could do this stuff! You need to sell the dream. And pocket the cash.

The people who sail around the world and solicit donations on their You Tube channels  are pretty successful at this stuff while keeping it at a grassroots level. Worth a look at some of the stuff they do. One of my favorites to follow is a couple who did not even know stem from stern when they set off on the voyage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKm2FX9kKZ4

 

Or if you are  more into building the boat, there is this series called Salt and Tar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuvGGI64RSU

 

And contrary to what you perverts are all thinking, I don't just watch these for the pornographic opportunities. The shows are rich in problem solving on both a project and life-logistics level. The challenges are huge but somehow they get solved by mere mortals that I can relate to.

turtl631
turtl631 Reader
12/28/17 3:04 p.m.

Jumper K Balls:  The weight distribution is decent for a FR layout car but certainly its not a front mid engine setup or anything like that.

Nick D: People always say that about the drift tax but I don't think reality bears it out completely.  Lots of reasonably priced cars out there with nice mods.  And really ratty ones don't sell for  much.  Asking prices may be a different story.  I sold my S14 with a solid S13 SR20DET, GT2871R turbo, flash tune etc etc, Koni yellows, GC coilovers, 300zx brakes, new wheels and tires, no rust, clean title etc for $7k last spring.  It sat for sale for a long time at that price.  

Regarding the performance potential, I agree, the KA pretty much sucks and if we got the SR20DET stock I'm sure things would be different in the states.  However, the cars are great platforms to build up with many easy swap options etc.  And the Miata motor isn't particularly inspiring but that hasn't kept legions of people from doing motorsports things with them, no roof 115 hp and all.

 

yupididit: I've been a 240sx owner and part of the "community" since 2004.  I've been to drift events, autocross, track days, etc and known lots of people doing all sorts of things with these cars.  The upper level drift builds are amazing but that's not what were talking about here.  I say "drift kids" referring to younger folks buying some cheap Chinese knockoff parts and coilovers, slamming the car super low, welding the diff, and then forming a "crew" and street drifting.  There's a lot of this and it has trashed a lot of decent cars and driven the parts market to the gutter.  I have friends who have made parts for these cars and had a hard time moving them while Parts Shop Max and D2 coilovers and all this other cheap knockoff stuff sells like crazy.  Just frustrating to me when they're such nice cars to build upon and you don't have to wreck them to go drifting.  Hell, read the MotoIQ articles about suspension tuning etc for drift car builds and its clear that a lot of work goes into a solid drift car.  So why the community won't try out some custom Konis that let you go low and run real spring rates with proper damping and keep buying the newest shiny thing out of the China factory is beyond me.  Ultimately though I'm not super fired up about people drifting.  Its not my sport of choice but I don't care what other people do.  Especially if they're interested in cars, that alone seems important nowadays.

 

 

Okay, off the 240SX soapbox!  This board really doesn't seem to like them and that's fine. Just surprising to me.  

 

And...I'd love to see some YT channels with roadrace or autox builds.  I spend more time watching welding or fabbing videos nowadays (weldingtipsandtricks, AvE, thisOldTony etc).

 

MotorsportsGordon
MotorsportsGordon New Reader
12/28/17 3:27 p.m.

I’m terms of autocross from what I’ve seen rallycross is eating away at the popularity autocross had aswell. The way I see it there are a few reasons why. Here in Alberta you will likely get double the runs in rallycross where a typical autocross has only 3. In my opinion autocross is best when it’s setup like a mini road course like at a kart track or a short course at a full roadcourse rather than any parking lot. Personally I would rather run on these rather than a course full of gates and crossing back. Give me proper defined track instead. This is also I think why rallycross is becoming more popular because generally speaking they seem to have more of a defined course. Some autocross course designers must love to try and get people lost on course and while I guess it might make it more challenging at times if u think about how fun is it getting lost on course. My dad originally quit autocross in 84/85 cause the tracks just kept getting slower and slower and it wasn’t fun to him anymore. The th400 in his 69 427 corvette wouldn’t get auto of second gear on these tracks. He did continue to run our 66 corvair 95hp powerglide in the ice dice series for a couple more years before the local club made some rules changes that didn’t allow him to play anymore.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
12/28/17 3:49 p.m.

In reply to turtl631 :

Well, I'm glad you clarified what you meant. And thanks. I think every hobby has that group of "kids". Though my post was directed at the entire forum, just used your statement as the excuse to rant.

And my conquest has d2 coilovers but I literally have no other options in suspension for them lol. cheeky

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