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loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
1/3/18 12:37 p.m.
759NRNG said:

LooseC.....How much? $50K?

I would deliver it anywhere in North America for that, and immediately start on the 510 build

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/3/18 1:00 p.m.
loosecannon said:
759NRNG said:

LooseC.....How much? $50K?

I would deliver it anywhere in North America for that, and immediately start on the 510 build

Would that include a bill of sale for $2018 as well? devil

loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
1/3/18 1:15 p.m.

In reply to NickD : It would be $2018 for the car and $47,982 for the trailer-it’s a nice trailer

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 1:49 p.m.
goingnowherefast said:

..In general, a SCCA $50 AutoX day gets you what? ~3-4 60 second runs for a total of ~$12.5 dollars per track minute. A $200 HPDE will normally give you 4 20 minute track sessions for a total of ~$2.5 per track minute. From a value perspective, AutoX does quite poorly, while I've seen grassroots drift clubs have $10 events with WAY more time than AutoX...

I sort of agree. The thing about "most" auto-x is that it's within driving distance of home - go there, run, go home, finished. "Most" trackday events (around here at least) require camping at minimum, or a hotel room due to the distances involved, including 100s of miles of driving. If you're really honest, trackday weekends are far closer to $1000 when it's all said and done. That said... I like trackday events WAY more than auto-x, where I been there, done that, for years.

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 1:53 p.m.
NickD said:
G_Body_Man said:
goingnowherefast said:

AutoX is also a terrible cost vs. track time investment. Probably one of the worst out of any motorsports. 

 

In general, a SCCA $50 AutoX day gets you what? ~3-4 60 second runs for a total of ~$12.5 dollars per track minute. A $200 HPDE will normally give you 4 20 minute track sessions for a total of ~$2.5 per track minute. From a value perspective, AutoX does quite poorly, while I've seen grassroots drift clubs have $10 events with WAY more time than AutoX.

 

Also SSCA classing is F&^ked beyond belief. 

Great point. Drifters get way more seat time per $, and they can totally build a car the way they want instead of try to build a car to a class.

Ughhh, SCCA classing. I often feel like the SCCA is punishing me because I spent time and money and effort building a nice car instead of just going out and buying a grocery-getter and throwing high end tires on it. My chapter does a lot of booths at import car shows (because young kids with imports are the most likely to come give autocross a try) and I can't count how many people we've had show up for an event and leave faintly disgusted because their modified car whoops half the field's ass and then comes in dead last behind 12 H/Street cars because of PAX

That's one thing that pushed me toward trackday events. The auto-x events are far more regimented - you can do this and that, but not that other stuff. Me on the other hand, I just want to build my car the way I want, and it'll get accepted wherever. For that reason I got dumped in classes where I wasn't very competitive but just didn't care - I was there to learn to drive better. At trackday events on the other hand, they don't care what you do to your car as long as there's basic safety gear - I like that simplicity.

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 1:59 p.m.
dean1484 said:

Why is Drifting more popular that auto cross???

 

I will just leave this here.

 

Oh lord, see... that's just the kind of guys I don't want to be in the same room with. That said, I stand by my remarks about drifting - as a spectator sport - is far more visually interesting. Heck, the picture above conveys far more excitement than a Miata rounding a cone.

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 2:06 p.m.
NickD said:

I will concede that at a pro level, Formula Drift participation is at an all-time low, with them failing to make a full 32 car field the entire '17 season. BUT, viewership/attendance is at a high. And while the number of drivers is down, the quality of drivers is through the roof, with guys like James Deane and Piotr Wiecek making the trip from Europe to see how they stack up against the Americans. I remember going to FD NJ in 2012 and having 54 cars qualifying for a 32 car field. This year there was 28. But in 2012, of those 54, only about 20 of them could complete the course without major errors and only 5 or 6 of them were really in contention for an event win or a championship. Of the 28 this year, almost all of them could have won an event and the Top 10 was in constant flux.

I would say that a big part of FD's participation issue is less the sport of drifting's fault, as well, and more the fault of FD as a sanctioning body. FD is notorious for not paying large purses to drivers, with many saying that an event win barely breaks even with the cost of running that event. They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

And the evolution of the pro drift car also hurt the sport. One car in particular is really responsible for this: Daigo Saito's Bridges Racing/Achilles Radial Toyota Soarer

 

In the 2012 season, when this car arrived, the average FD Pro car still had a radiator in the front, anywhere from 600-800hp, plenty of OEM sheetmetal and full trunk floors and sheetmetal structure ahead of the shock towers, 55 degrees of steering angle, OEM differentials and transmission, and could go for multiple matchups on tires. Then Daigo Saito arrived with this nuclear bomb of a car, with a 1200hp 2JZ, G-Force 4-speed dog box and quick-change rear end, rear mount radiator, tube structures in the front and rear, tons of angle. And it changed the sport almost overnight.

He laid waste to the competition because the car was such overkill. With so much more power and grip and less weight than the competition, in the lead run he could just power away from the competition and run and hide. In the chase position, he outpowered everyone so he could just mat it and run up on their door. And the car, between the power and aero chewed through tires and had to have new ones every two runs or they would come apart.

Come the '13 season and now, to compete, everyone had to have 4-digit power, and 75 degrees of steering angle, and completely gutted with fiberglass or carbon bodywork. And now, with tire consumption through the roof, you had to have a major tire sponsor or you would bankrupt yourself to compete. And suddenly all the privateers got squeezed out of existence, because they couldn't afford to build a car to the new standard and they couldn't afford to buy tires at the rate they would burn through them. 

 

The solution is that FD should put a limit on tire usage, make it so that they can only use so many tires per event. That would force guys to back down on the power and aero. Maybe require the usage of more OEM components. But the problem is then the cars would be slower and have less angle and make less smoke and be generally less interesting to the average viewer. 

This reminds me a lot of... what's it called, "Ultimate Street Car Challenge" or something like that. I looked into it briefly and backed away. I'd be competing against shop-built and sponsored cars running XXX or even XXXX hp, with insane support budgets. I'd be out of money in no time and that ended those silly thoughts right there. The point being that any sport sort of gets ruined when you have teams showing up spending 10X what everyone else is. Skill can make up for some of that but in the end, the big-buck teams will win out, and that's the end for the little guys.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
1/3/18 2:34 p.m.
kb58 said:
goingnowherefast said:

..In general, a SCCA $50 AutoX day gets you what? ~3-4 60 second runs for a total of ~$12.5 dollars per track minute. A $200 HPDE will normally give you 4 20 minute track sessions for a total of ~$2.5 per track minute. From a value perspective, AutoX does quite poorly, while I've seen grassroots drift clubs have $10 events with WAY more time than AutoX...

I sort of agree. The thing about "most" auto-x is that it's within driving distance of home - go there, run, go home, finished. "Most" trackday events (around here at least) require camping at minimum, or a hotel room due to the distances involved, including 100s of miles of driving. If you're really honest, trackday weekends are far closer to $1000 when it's all said and done. That said... I like trackday events WAY more than auto-x, where I been there, done that, for years.

Apples and oranges.  Autox is a competition.  A HPDE is not.

Daylan C
Daylan C SuperDork
1/3/18 3:11 p.m.
NickD said:

I will concede that at a pro level, Formula Drift participation is at an all-time low, with them failing to make a full 32 car field the entire '17 season. BUT, viewership/attendance is at a high. And while the number of drivers is down, the quality of drivers is through the roof, with guys like James Deane and Piotr Wiecek making the trip from Europe to see how they stack up against the Americans. I remember going to FD NJ in 2012 and having 54 cars qualifying for a 32 car field. This year there was 28. But in 2012, of those 54, only about 20 of them could complete the course without major errors and only 5 or 6 of them were really in contention for an event win or a championship. Of the 28 this year, almost all of them could have won an event and the Top 10 was in constant flux.

I would say that a big part of FD's participation issue is less the sport of drifting's fault, as well, and more the fault of FD as a sanctioning body. FD is notorious for not paying large purses to drivers, with many saying that an event win barely breaks even with the cost of running that event. They are also infamously nebulous on their judging calls, which is often perceived as favoritism towards certain drivers (*cough* Chris Forsberg *cough*). It could very well be favoritism, but if it isn't, they need to make clear why they came to the ruling decision they did so that they don't piss of fans and drivers (Forrest Wang, incredibly talented driver, quit for this very reason)

And the evolution of the pro drift car also hurt the sport. One car in particular is really responsible for this: Daigo Saito's Bridges Racing/Achilles Radial Toyota Soarer

 

In the 2012 season, when this car arrived, the average FD Pro car still had a radiator in the front, anywhere from 600-800hp, plenty of OEM sheetmetal and full trunk floors and sheetmetal structure ahead of the shock towers, 55 degrees of steering angle, OEM differentials and transmission, and could go for multiple matchups on tires. Then Daigo Saito arrived with this nuclear bomb of a car, with a 1200hp 2JZ, G-Force 4-speed dog box and quick-change rear end, rear mount radiator, tube structures in the front and rear, tons of angle. And it changed the sport almost overnight.

He laid waste to the competition because the car was such overkill. With so much more power and grip and less weight than the competition, in the lead run he could just power away from the competition and run and hide. In the chase position, he outpowered everyone so he could just mat it and run up on their door. And the car, between the power and aero chewed through tires and had to have new ones every two runs or they would come apart.

Come the '13 season and now, to compete, everyone had to have 4-digit power, and 75 degrees of steering angle, and completely gutted with fiberglass or carbon bodywork. And now, with tire consumption through the roof, you had to have a major tire sponsor or you would bankrupt yourself to compete. And suddenly all the privateers got squeezed out of existence, because they couldn't afford to build a car to the new standard and they couldn't afford to buy tires at the rate they would burn through them. 

 

The solution is that FD should put a limit on tire usage, make it so that they can only use so many tires per event. That would force guys to back down on the power and aero. Maybe require the usage of more OEM components. But the problem is then the cars would be slower and have less angle and make less smoke and be generally less interesting to the average viewer. 

Remember that time a dude with a nearly stock El Camino was competitive? Yeah that didn't last long. I think it was Mike Peters. Killed the stock small block after winning 1 or 2 events, switched to a new combo mid season and never quite got it sorted.

I remembered this because the other day I was thinking a g-body might be a decent drift car. Then I remembered that one was.

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/3/18 3:20 p.m.

In reply to Daylan C :

It was Mike Peters. I remember that because he was the most trash-talking motherberkeleyer on WreckedMagazine (RIP WreckedMagazine) and so anytime you wanted to talk smack, you just made your account into Mike Peters or some derivative and then went off like a moron. 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
1/3/18 3:32 p.m.
kb58 said:
dean1484 said:

Why is Drifting more popular that auto cross???

 

I will just leave this here.

 

Oh lord, see... that's just the kind of guys I don't want to be in the same room with. That said, I stand by my remarks about drifting - as a spectator sport - is far more visually interesting. Heck, the picture above conveys far more excitement than a Miata rounding a cone.

Like this photo illustrates, drifting is associated with an attitude and an energy that really resonates with young people. That fact isn't lost on event promoters, energy drink companies, video producers, or alcohol distributors.

 

#epic #badass #extreme #yolo #raw #cargirls #jdm #stance #nos #vip #nofatchicks #hoonigan #slideordie #etc

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/3/18 3:47 p.m.
nderwater said:
kb58 said:
dean1484 said:

Why is Drifting more popular that auto cross???

 

I will just leave this here.

 

Oh lord, see... that's just the kind of guys I don't want to be in the same room with. That said, I stand by my remarks about drifting - as a spectator sport - is far more visually interesting. Heck, the picture above conveys far more excitement than a Miata rounding a cone.

Like this photo illustrates, drifting is associated with an attitude and an energy that really resonates with young people. That fact isn't lost on event promoters, energy drink companies, or alcohol vendors.

 

#epic #badass #extreme #yolo #raw #cargirls #jdm #stance #nos #vip #nofatchicks #hoonigan #etc

at least until one of these "extreme" folks kills themselves or worse, innocent bystanders and the money runs away and hides while the insurance and various agencies arrive to kill off he remaining fun.

The SCCA and other, similar sanctioning bodies didn't end up stuffy and boring overnight.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
1/3/18 4:00 p.m.
nderwater said:

 

#epic #badass #extreme #yolo #raw #cargirls #jdm #stance #nos #vip #nofatchicks #hoonigan #slideordie #etc

 

Going to add these tags to my next Instagram and YouTube videos just to see if I get more likes. 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
1/3/18 5:20 p.m.
ProDarwin said:

Apples and oranges.  Autox is a competition.  A HPDE is not.

Which just underscores why this thread is true.

Daylan C
Daylan C SuperDork
1/3/18 7:20 p.m.

I wonder how much of CAM was an attempt at trying to make SCCA look less stuffy old and boring. Considering what I read when they first brought it up was specifically opening up more events for cars like this.

Admittedly these cars look like they do because the only rules are "it has to be old, american, front engine rear drive, have an interior, 200tw tires, and weight more than 3000lbs." I think the only rule changes  in SCCA's CAM have been clarifying what they consider old an American. 

bigben
bigben Reader
1/3/18 10:03 p.m.
Daylan C said:

I wonder how much of CAM was an attempt at trying to make SCCA look less stuffy old and boring. Considering what I read when they first brought it up was specifically opening up more events for cars like this.

Admittedly these cars look like they do because the only rules are "it has to be old, american, front engine rear drive, have an interior, 200tw tires, and weight more than 3000lbs." I think the only rule changes  in SCCA's CAM have been clarifying what they consider old an American. 

It would be nice if the SCCA would show similar love to those of us with old imports and less cylinders.

bigben
bigben Reader
1/3/18 10:06 p.m.
nderwater said:
kb58 said:
dean1484 said:

Why is Drifting more popular that auto cross???

 

I will just leave this here.

 

Oh lord, see... that's just the kind of guys I don't want to be in the same room with. That said, I stand by my remarks about drifting - as a spectator sport - is far more visually interesting. Heck, the picture above conveys far more excitement than a Miata rounding a cone.

Like this photo illustrates, drifting is associated with an attitude and an energy that really resonates with young people. That fact isn't lost on event promoters, energy drink companies, video producers, or alcohol distributors.

 

#epic #badass #extreme #yolo #raw #cargirls #jdm #stance #nos #vip #nofatchicks #hoonigan #slideordie #etc

Is it just me or is there some rule in drifting against having a front bumper on your 240?

freetors
freetors New Reader
1/3/18 10:16 p.m.

In reply to bigben :

The front fell off.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
1/3/18 10:53 p.m.

Street cred, yo. It's a badge of honor to show that you're not just a wannabe because you've hit the wall while drifting.

yupididit
yupididit SuperDork
1/3/18 11:36 p.m.

The hate is strong in you, old ones. Lmao

 

#damnkids #khakis #boring #liver #dockers #aarp #buttherules #getoffmyporch #noliberals #narrowass 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
1/4/18 12:08 a.m.

I am far from the age of the people that do drifting and there audience but if there was a local event I would go. Hell if  I had a car set up  I would love to try it.  Looks like lots of fun.  It is not like we did not slide cars around when I was a kid. We just did not have camera phones to record it. 

Crackers
Crackers Dork
1/4/18 3:29 a.m.

In reply to Trackmouse :

What I find interesting about FD cars is they are actually allowed very few chassis changes. 

They are required to keep most of the original unibody, and suspension pick up points are only allowed to be moved an inch. 

You're only allowed to snub the frame rails up to (but not including) the suspension/subframe pick up points.

Even the factory subframes must be retained with very limited cutting/welding/reinforcement allowed. (This was an issue with Aasbo's car a couple years ago IIRC.)

I had researched FD rules a while ago when I found out there was a Pro-Am series within "day trip" distance. 

 

STM317
STM317 Dork
1/4/18 4:51 a.m.
Daylan C said:

I wonder how much of CAM was an attempt at trying to make SCCA look less stuffy old and boring. Considering what I read when they first brought it up was specifically opening up more events for cars like this.

Admittedly these cars look like they do because the only rules are "it has to be old, american, front engine rear drive, have an interior, 200tw tires, and weight more than 3000lbs." I think the only rule changes  in SCCA's CAM have been clarifying what they consider old an American. 

Yep. The CAM format really is the answer for the SCCA as far as I'm concerned. From an average car guy perspective it's really nice to show up in a vehicle that I've built to be what I want it to be, modified to my tastes, and run it a couple times per year. I don't give a crap about building to narrow regulations for a specific class, or even about being super competitive on a large scale. PAX is irrelevant to me. I want to drive the course in my vehicle and see what times I'm capable of and then compare them to others. It's about building what you want and being the fastest that you can be. I get a kick out of it when my truck is faster than a 350Z, 3 Series or Mustang regardless of PAX.

I don't have the time to pursue a full season, and being nationally competitive would be cool, but isn't realistic for most. I'm sure there will be guys that build high dollar, shop built, ringer cars just to decimate the CAM field at Nationals. That will cause the rules to be tightened but for right now it's the place to be in SCCA if you're not a hardcore, cargo shorts, big hat type that spends every weekend dodging cones.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver PowerDork
1/4/18 5:36 a.m.

$10 drift days?  How the eff do they pull that off?

 

I am an organizer with a small independent club, adding up lot rental, INSURANCE, equipment upkeep, etc..   I dont see how thats possible without BIG independent sponsorship funding paying things off.  (or somehow not bothering with insurance, EEEP surprise )

NickD
NickD UltraDork
1/4/18 8:42 a.m.
bigben said:
Daylan C said:

I wonder how much of CAM was an attempt at trying to make SCCA look less stuffy old and boring. Considering what I read when they first brought it up was specifically opening up more events for cars like this.

Admittedly these cars look like they do because the only rules are "it has to be old, american, front engine rear drive, have an interior, 200tw tires, and weight more than 3000lbs." I think the only rule changes  in SCCA's CAM have been clarifying what they consider old an American. 

It would be nice if the SCCA would show similar love to those of us with old imports and less cylinders.

Many chapters run an unofficial class called STO (Street Touring Open) which is kind of an "anything goes" class, the only rule being that you have to run 200TW tires. I'm trying to get our chapter to run it for us, because we are a small region and don't have any serious SP/SM cars that show up on Hoosiers.

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