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  • Mazda787b

    Jan. 15, 2012 11:28 p.m. Mazda787b New Reader

    Over summer, I picked up a 98 neon ACR coupe which was prepped in STS (Auto-X) trim. I am giving it a thorough once-over in order to run it in a few events this summer, both Auto-X and HPDE.

    However, my ultimate goal is to do the Targa Newfoundland in 2014. I figure that is far enough out to get familiar with the car, and get it prepared. It has always been a dream of my father and I do run the Targa. While doing the actual Targa class would be great, I am just shooting for the GT division. With proper safety equipment, it could actually be Targa-class legal in current form.

    I could essentially add an Autopower cage, seats, and harnesses to be Targa legal. The motor has only about 30k on it, but I plan on putting together a mild-NA build and blueprint just for my own piece of mind, as well as adding a Quaife.

    Would I be better off running GT for my first time? Are the roads smooth enough to handle Koni Yellows/GC coilovers, or is a more rally-oriented setup required?

    When all is said and done, I will essentially have a decent ITB-class car. I am not sure if this will translate into something suitable for the Targa or not?

  • JoeyM

    Jan. 16, 2012 2:24 a.m. JoeyM SuperDork

    I don't have any useful knowledge here. I just wanted to say that if you don't hear from him in his thread, send a PM to Keith....he runs that race

  • Mazda787b

    Jan. 16, 2012 4:19 a.m. Mazda787b New Reader

    JoeyM wrote:

    I don't have any useful knowledge here. I just wanted to say that if you don't hear from him in his thread, send a PM to Keith....he runs that race

    I've read his thread, several times.

    If all else fails, a PM will be sent.

  • JoeyM

    Jan. 16, 2012 6:28 a.m. JoeyM SuperDork

    Sorry. That was a typo. I meant to say "...in this thread..." It is amazing what the ommission of one letter can do to the meaning

  • Keith

    Jan. 16, 2012 10:00 a.m. Keith SuperDork

    Hi guys!

    If you ask a lot of Targa division drivers - especially those without a lot of experience at the event - they'll scoff at the baby GT class. But our team this year had one Targa car and one GT car, and I learned a lot.

    The Targa class is pretty easy to figure out. High speeds, lots of opportunities for big accidents, huge pounding on the car. The driver's working very hard all the time weighing safety vs speed and the navigator's responsibility is to make sure the driver has the information he/she needs to get through the stage. You're usually running as fast as you can. Your navigator needs to have an iron stomach and be able to communicate precise information at just the right moment. Because you're harder on the car, you'll spend more time in the evenings taking care of it even if nothing breaks.

    GT is quite a bit different. The speeds are lower - for example, on the Garnish stage, GT was supposed to average 80 kmh while Targa had to hit a 130 kmh minimum average. The job of the navigator is far more difficult. Not only do they have to keep the driver on course, but they have to make sure the team is still in the time window. The margins get pretty slim near the end of the race, and there are mid-stage hidden checkpoints to make sure you're not banking a bunch of time just so you can slow at the finish. The driver's not having to work as hard for absolute speed, but you do have to drive for momentum to keep the speed consistent and you probably won't have as much help with navigation because your navigator is consumed by pace calculations. It's challenging in a different way, and shouldn't be scoffed at. I would not want to be a GT navigator, I think it's the hardest job in the race.

    A lot of what makes running the event is the same regardless of if you're running GT or Targa. You still get to meet all sorts of very cool people, see some great cars and you're all racers at the evening car shows when you get to spend time with the locals. GT teams get to see the new "Hot Tour" supercar group launch off every time, Targa cars tend to be too far back to see it.

    As a driver, you'll enjoy Targa division more. Your navigator will have to be comfortable with the speeds however, and of course you'll need a high level of car prep. Sounds like the latter is not a problem.

    As for suitability of the car itself - GC sleeves can be fitted with a wide range of springs. The roads are smoother than they were in 2008 thanks to a hurricane removing a lot of the old pavement, but there are still some rough spots. You'll need some ground clearance, skid protection and a suspension that's stiff enough for high speeds but compliant enough to deal with high speed hits. A GT class car isn't as demanding on the suspension, but the same basic attributes apply. We used our off-the-shelf performance Miata suspension for the GT class and a custom-built setup running a slightly softer spring set than full track for Targa.

  • JoeyM

    Jan. 16, 2012 12:16 p.m. JoeyM SuperDork

    Thanks Keith...informative (as usual)

  • The0retical

    Jan. 16, 2012 1:43 p.m. The0retical New Reader

    Hey Keith,

    Not to hijack the thread but I had a question as it pertains to the Targa Newfoundland as well. The rule book states that the cars have to be from a recognized manufacturer. I'm a bit curious as to if Factory Five would fit into that category. I've been considering a build of a GTM for a couple of years and I'm getting close to purchasing the kit. I'd very much like to run one in the Targa but not sure where it fits or what rules would apply to it with the roll cage, if it fits the standards of a recognized manufacturer, and if it does or does not fit the OES or OEM technical specs as there are none really being a kit.

    The plan is to make it street legal but I'd like to occasionally run it in some events on a local and regional scale.

    Any insight would be very much appreciated, though if it doesn't fit I'll need to get to work on something else.

  • Keith

    Jan. 16, 2012 2:30 p.m. Keith SuperDork

    You'll find that the Targa organizers are very accessible and very helpful. They want to make it possible for you to run, and they'll find a way to make it work. It's a refreshing change from some other organizations. Give them a call or fire off an email.

    As an example, the "Hot Tour" group for the supercars was created simply to let a particular group of high-profile cars take part in a manner that worked for them. They couldn't run Targa, but didn't want to run GT. That's an option for everyone, by the way, although I'm not sure the crowds would be excited about a Neon in between an Enzo and a Maserati.

    If you want to run the GTM in Targa division, expect to be classed in Open. That will give you a lot of technical freedom and I think it's where the car belongs. The roll cage rules are pretty clear, and if you can point to NASA or SCCA certification that will often satisfy the rollover requirements.

    There was a Caterham in the GT class a few years back, BTW.

  • Mazda787b

    Jan. 17, 2012 6:36 a.m. Mazda787b New Reader

    Thanks for the info Keith, I greatly appreciate it. A call to Truechoice should hopefully square away my suspension setup. It wouldn't be much more to pick up a second set of Konis for this and have them valved accordingly. The suspension setup is what scared me the most. In Auto-X trim, the car will nearly high-center on a decent speed bump. Couple that with my extended-sump Moroso pan, and I cringe every time the car gets driven on the street.

    I know this is putting the cart way before the horse here, but I have to ask about logistics. How many people do you bring along as a crew? Do you have everything transported ahead of time, or do you trailer everything there? I would assume bringing everything short of a new motor would be the proper amount of spares. One of everything so to speak.

    The way I understand it, competitors are given route books ahead of time and the co-driver is to relay the route instructions to the driver. Is there any time for Recce, or just the old "sink or swim" method?

  • Jan. 17, 2012 9:04 a.m. TargaNewfoundland None

    Hey guys,

    Excuse me for hijacking your thread. Keith has much more Targa experience than me, but I was hoping I could be of some assistance. If you have any questions, feel free to fire me an e-mail. Anything of the technical variety and I'll put you in touch with our Technical Inspector. Keith, feel free to jump in if you want to clarify anything I'm saying

    Mazda787b: As Keith mentioned, GT is nothing to scoff at as it's challenging in its own right. Many new competitors run Targa division their first time out but GT isn't a bad place to get your feet wet. The number of crew members vary but you can bring up to 8. I believe competitors generally bring most supplies with them when they come. You would receive your route book at registration on the Saturday before Targa but there are sample ones on our website which you can have a look at.

    The0retical: I'm not sure where the GTM stands with regard to the rules. That would probably be better dealt with by the tech inspector. Shoot me an e-mail.

    Anyone else: Any questions or concerns, you can find me at the info below...

    Chris Langdon - Registrar/Marketing Coordinator
    Targa Newfoundland
    <a href="mailto:chris@targanewfoundland.com">chris@targanewfoundland.com</a>
    <a href="http://targanewfoundland.com">targanewfoundland.com</a>
    Tel: 1-877-332-2413
    Fax: 1-709-753-7646
    
  • Keith

    Jan. 17, 2012 12:09 p.m. Keith SuperDork

    Welcome aboard, Chris!

    If you're scared driving your car on the street, you'll definitely want to do something for Targa! In 2008, we hit a speed bump at 80 mph that wasn't even in the notes because, well, it wasn't exceptional. Lift the car, add a skid plate and make sure you're comfortable over just about any paved surface. I seem to recall a Subaru driver telling me they ran gravel suspension screwed down all the way.

    In 2008, we had two people for crew: my parents. They weren't a lot of help in wrenching, but they took care of the background details like checking us in/out of hotels, getting dinner in the evenings, checking tire pressures, filling camelbaks and cleaning windows. All the stuff that needs to be done but eats up time. They also met us at various points when we needed help, such as a roadside setup with jackstands so I could adjust suspension height between stages. That worked pretty well, but if we'd had mechanical problems I would not have have had much sleep.

    In 2011, we had a cast of thousands. Or at least, it seemed like it. Two cars, five crew. We had one rock star member that was more mechanical and able to take care of the cars well, although the two drivers were still the crew chief for their respective vehicles because of greater familiarity with the cars. The rest of the crew played a similar role to 2008, although there was now a food truck in the parking lot of the evening services that served some very good food. That made evening meals much easier.

    Some teams don't even have crew, especially in Touring. The teams work together - we carried some spares for an Alfa in 2008 and a number of other teams helped us out in 2011 with tools we hadn't thought to bring. A number of teams will advertise in advance if they have room or are able to support your car.

    We trailered everything there, then dropped the trailer in St. John's. Everything we needed was in the back of the pickup. I didn't have a massive collection of spares, but you need a spare tire for a Targa class car (assuming you carry another on board) as well as various consumables. I also had replacement suspension parts just in case there was a whoopsie as well as other potential failure points such as a coil. Which I used. If you're driving a fairly common car such as a Neon, you will be able to source some parts on the island. Heck, they found an engine for an Exige last year, and in 2010 Kia tore apart a brand new car to yank the drivetrain to replace a blown one.

    The route is public knowledge and there's nothing stopping you from doing recce. However, it's a long, long race and that's a pretty major undertaking. Personally, I didn't do any with the exception of one stage where we'd arrived early and had time to kill. I also watched some videos, this was particularly useful for Greenspond. The official route books were released about a month early this year which was nice, although we didn't do much with them.

    Here's something I put together in 2008: a marked-up route book and a narrated video of one of the stages. The tightest stage, don't let it freak you out too much The books are evolving a little bit, they now have better verbiage for the navigator and apparently they're also going to be adding more turn-by-turn detail. At the moment, they only include navigation and turns that are "out of character". On Brigus, of course, it's all navigation.

    My wife Janel gives better instructions than just about any other in-car I've watched, you'd never know she's a novice here. This is what your navigator should aim for: accurate, concise and well-timed.
    Route book (PDF)
    In-car video with subtitles

    To get an idea of what's typically in the route books on a faster stage, listen to the notes in Garnish. This will apparently get more detailed in the future. You can hear how Janel changes inflection in her voice to differentiate between the different types of information.Garnish

  • The0retical

    Jan. 18, 2012 5:05 a.m. The0retical New Reader

    Chris,

    Thank you for the reply, I'll email you when I get the kit on order to hash out the details for making the car legal to run.

    Keith,

    Thank you for the info, I know I'm piggy backing off Mazda787b's thread and all. The videos just reaffirm that I need to do that at some point in my life.

 
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